Hawks n' Doves

Maybe that's the problem with putting nationality, religion and so forth ahead of global peace.

I listened to Krugman talking about his new book "The Conscience of a Liberal" and he reviews conservatism in the history of this country.

The idea was to prevent, overhaul or dismantle anything that promoted the equality of people.

I'm sure that mentality exists on local and national levels - that it isn't a GOOD THING to have equality of people.

In Krugman's case, he looks at it economically (as far as historically) - he said that Canada and Western Europe still have a healthy number of middle class people, but that the US is going back to the "Gilded Age" when there were mostly rich and poor, around the turn of the century.

So there is not a general value of EQUALITY.

Same occurs when someone puts their nation or religious group ahead of people in general. A perfect example is Switzerland, where 30% of people are foreign origin and it's hard to get citizenship. The prevailing political poster shows 3 white sheep chasing a black sheep off the Swiss flag. It's very racist and very well accepted. The idea is that all without citizenship and who are foreign-born would be chased out of the country.

The mentality which oppressed Israel was nationalistic, so Israeli hardliners and their supporters here should not be applying the same mentality to others.

There is not a sensitive way to explain it beyond what you have already done, Suz. & I have talked to Marjorie and others of Jewish background about this.

Correction:

I wrote:
The mentality which oppressed Israel was nationalistic, so Israeli hardliners and their supporters here should not be applying the same mentality to others.

I meant:
The mentality which oppressed the Jews during WW2, was nationalistic, so Israeli hardliners of today and their supporters here in US should not be applying the same mentality (nationalistic more than of global peace) to others.

The argument might be that the "Islamofascists" are doing it (being nationalistic or putting their religion above others). That is no excuse to do the same thing. That's the old "an eye for an eye" thing and I don't buy it.

http://www.americanprogress.org/cartoons/2007/10/100907_trick.jpg
Today's American Progress Cartoon

I must admit that I have some very strong feelings when it comes to the question of Israel's sovereignty and right to exist. I also have very strong feelings when I read people's comments which imply that if one supports Israel's determination to survive, then one must be a cold blooded, ignorant, apologist for a bunch of murdering thugs. I am sure some of you have seen such comments on other blogs. There is no way to argue against such commentary and therefore a corollary of Godwin's Law could be invoked.

Oncall--NMP,

Perhaps this is one of those times when being off-topic is easier than actually speaking on topic.

From my viewpoint, I am quite a bit like Oncall, and others, in that it's very difficult to hear criticism of Israel. They have a right to exist--that's for sure! But even within their society there are the hawks and doves and that same dichotomy exists within the USA.

I believe an Israeli hawk was responsible for the murder of Yitzak Rabin on October 26,1995. To be specific, he was assassinated by someone who opposed his signing of the Oslo Accords. For a short time after the Oslo Accords were signed there was relatively less attacks in the region. But after his death, the intifada began and the number of Israeli deaths began to increase each year.

However, I still remember watching the funeral with my mom and grandma and seeing the Clinton's and other foreign dignitaries honoring his life at his death. I still remember hearing the traditional Jewish Peace songthat he had sung moments before his death. Even though he was a hawk during his earlier years, in his death he's remembered as a dove--as a person who tried to bring peace to Israel.

My friends, as we discuss this thread header, please try to remember that we often may read written words differently than the author meant them. But remember as well that there are many groups across the US that support the building of ties amongst Jews, Christians, and Arabs (and Palestinians). I know my sister's family belongs to one in Chicago and such groups are designed to recognise the national pride one has in their culture and religion but also to recognise and respect the pride and people of the other culture.

Nationalism by itself isn't a bad term. When one takes their pride in their country (or religion) and uses it for good works and when one does it with integrity. There is talk of having a National Work program in our own country.

But within the premise of what I wrote, I would have to say that I see a lot of dishonesty coming from Sen. Lieberman (specifically) and from David Horowitz too. This is what has led to a divide between what my brother would feel is reasonable to protect oneself from attack and what Lieberman and Horowitz lie about in order to maintain their hawkish views.

....

Hmmm...maybe this is a time when being off topic is definitely easier on the heart rate.

Oncall or anyone--Do you believe what Lieberman or Horowitz says?

(Or maybe...uhmmm...hmmmmmmmm... Diversion time is better?)

I'm awake...talking to myself. I have no idea why.

I just want to add that having grown up hearing about the sneak attack against Israel in the 7 day war during the Holy Days and how Israel overcame them. Then later hearing about the Olympic Jews murdered in their dorm room in Germany by terrorist. I myself feel that what Israel did in 1981 was heroic. (They took out the nuclear reactor without targetting civilians. They also took the heat for it in the U.N. too)

They also defended themselves during the attacks on Entibbe and have always experienced terrorist hijackers murdering Israelis in the skies.

That said...My concern is that Joe Lieberman and David Horowitz represent a 'new breed' of hawks that is willing to lie and support a liar in order to support Israel. That bothers me.

I trust my brother and some of the things he says (on Israel and Iran) is like the Lie-Witz's but at least my brother hasn't supported any of Bush's hawkish behavior with Iraq etc, just because he feels to do so would help Israel. He admits Bush and the cabal are lying thugs. But what does that say when two of America's prominent Jews are entrenched with the liars?

On that note...I'm going to bed.

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/10/09/the-daily-show-torturous-intentions/
The Daily Show: Torturous Intentions

Turkey Pressured to Send Troops Into Northern Iraq
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/100907R.shtml
Hidir Goktas and Gareth Jones of Reuters report: "Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan gave the green light on Tuesday for a possible military incursion into northern Iraq to crush Kurdish rebels hiding there after a series of deadly attacks on Turkish security forces."
[Two articles on same link.]

Altered Corn Toxins Entering Water Ecosystems
http://www.truthout.org/issues_06/100907EB.shtml
The Environmental News Network reports, "A study by an Indiana University environmental science professor and several colleagues suggests a widely planted variety of genetically engineered corn has the potential to harm aquatic ecosystems."

Anti-Terror Spy Network Wrecked by White House Leak
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/100907A.shtml
Joby Warrick, reporting for the Washington Post, writes that a small private intelligence company that monitors Islamic terrorist groups obtained a new Osama bin Laden video ahead of its official release last month and notified the Bush administration of its secret acquisition. It gave two senior officials access on the condition that the officials not reveal they had it until the al-Qaeda release. The founder of the company says the White House's premature disclosure of the tape tipped al-Qaeda to a security breach and destroyed a years-long surveillance operation that the company has used to intercept and pass along secret messages, videos and advance warnings of suicide bombings from the terrorist group's communications network.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Read the full article to see who started the SITE group, what they do.

http://www.siteinstitute.org/
SITE is an acronym for The Search for International Terrorist Entities
Do a Google search for "SITE Intelligence Group" and see if you get the same thing I did with a FOXNews web site coming up as the first entry with a mini pix of the White House by the entry, and the SITE web site listed second.

Sooooooooooo.... What I wanna know is this: Why the hell is a private corporation doing spy work that the CIA and FBI are supposed to be doing, and if the private corporation is privy to advance warnings of suicide bombings, why haven't the suicide bombings stopped....?!?!?!? If these private corporations really do have advance warning of suicide bombings, then they should be sharing the information with law enforcement agencies so the law enforcement agencies could stop the suicide bombers before they got to their intended targets. And why would other corporations be forewarned about suicide bombers before any law enforcement agencies...? For every question I have, ten more could be asked.

This whole thing stinks to high heaven...!!!

By way of deception, thou shalt do war.

Isreal is no exception.

They have a right to exist, but then again, so do Palestinians.

They do not, however, have a right to have their daddy fight proxy wars for them, but they damn sure have us doing their military bidding anyway. Saddam was a perfect example of such a situation.

And, now that he is gone, if we will only kill the Syrians, the Iranians and Pakistanis for them, they would be forever grateful, I'm sure.

Amen Christy. The Palistians do have a right to exist, with their democratically elected Govt not the Govt deemed by the US or Israel.

Details of contract fraud and bribes arise in Iraq. Investigation could lead to General David Petraeus. Col. Ted Westhusing was investigating this fraud in Iraq when he was said to have committed "suicide." His superior officer at the time was Petraeus. The "Surge" may be a bunch of senior Army officers being locked up at the Fort Leavenworth Disciplinary Barracks.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/31/washington/31contract.html?ei=5090&en=379525d15e30c78d&ex=1346212800&adxnnl=1&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&adxnnlx=1188584312-oewPz7sFi4/FHTdMel0fSg

Thanks Christy will be watching out for them in the mail

I think it's important to remember that Israeli people and the Jewish race came close to being exterminated by all of Europe, the Mid East, and the entire world at large.

We can not deny that when they fight they fight for the very lives of their own family, the same as we would.

Christy, I believe the Palestinians deserve their own state as well; however, I'd like to point out a number of things.

1. Israel gave up land in order to facilitate creating the Palestinian state in the Oslo Accords.
2. After the Oslo Accords, the Palestinians began the intifada rather than forcing their own police to police the terrorist, they joined them.
3. The Palestinian leadership refused the offers Israel made that would have furthered their own statehood. They were given 95% of what they asked for but they wanted 100% so Arafat turned it down.
4. Arafat used money from his 'government' to fund the intifada against Israel.
5. Iraq and middle east countries have funded the suicide-murder bombers in Israel. Also neighboring countries have never opened their countries for Palestinians to have a state or citizenship there. They purposely force them to endure miserable conditions because it helps them stir up Middle-East anger against Israel and continue to pursue the goal they've always had which is to 'drive Israel' into the see.

So with that list of things that Israel continues to fight for her existence, then let us agree that Israel does have the right to defend herself and her people.

This is like an argument between two (or more) siblings. They are all responsible and they all have responsibility to fix the situation equitably. But as a parent we can not tolerate violence against one sibling and we can not tolerate lies and distortions from any of them. And that is what we get from all sides. And that is why when you speak against Israel or speak for Israel or you speak against Palestine or you speak for Palestine, you must at least attempt to be an honest broker and recognise that both children are in need of behavior modification classes and a serious time-out.

I have to say that as a Jewish person that is why I am seriously disgusted with Lieberman and Horowitz who think they are representing Israel's best interest by supporting a thug in the White House.

And it's also why I personally feel that to be an honest broker, it's not just about supporting Israel's right to exist and supporting Palestinians' right to exist; no matter what that's just not doing enough! It's about creating a structure of peace, which is what I believe NMP was trying to say. Within that structure, you provide peace education. You teach tolerance for both Palestinians and Jews. Hey, take Kucinich's idea--he doesn't blame one country or another for whatever happens--but he suggests a "Department of Peace." You find a way to take away the 2000 years of hatred and instead try to at least teach compromise and acceptance.

For that reason, I admire the fact that my sister and her family joined a Palestinian, Christian, Jewish peace organization. It's within that group that they discuss and try to encourage Peace and understanding. They try to grow bonds between all the religions. In this way, though it's very difficult to put aside protectionism for one's country and admit to mistakes, it's also possible to ask the same of the other side too. And when both sides can agree to grow peace instead of blow oxygen into the flame of hatred, then that is when we will see improvement.

But for now, Lieberman and Horowitz are definitely flame throwers.

Hell I wish there were a whole lot more sparrows working to make a palistinian state and maybe we might get some where.
Thanks sparrow, to bad I don't think I will see it in my lifetime.
To me Lieberman is scum, Horowitz I don't know anything about

New Open Thread...

Sparrow, I am responding here in spite of the new thread. I do not like these Isreali arguments, there is something profoundly wrong with the way we talk about Isreal in this country.

Here is what you said with my responses thrown in.

sparrow said:
"I think it's important to remember that Israeli people and the Jewish race came close to being exterminated by all of Europe, the Mid East, and the entire world at large."

What hitler did to them is no excuse for them turning around and committing atrocities against another race. Any time you call it atrocity on their part, someone always comes along saying we must remember what happened to them 50 years ago. End of discussion.

"We can not deny that when they fight they fight for the very lives of their own family, the same as we would."

No. For one, they don't fight 'the same' as I would. And for two the Palestinians are absolutely also fighting for their own lives. For every Isreali that is killed, hundreds of Palestinians are killed. Palestinians watch their kids get sniped by Isreali snipers at their own dinner tables. It happens all the time.

The families of Isreal are no more or less important to me than the families of Palestinians.

"Christy, I believe the Palestinians deserve their own state as well; however, I'd like to point out a number of things.

1. Israel gave up land in order to facilitate creating the Palestinian state in the Oslo Accords."

Yes, they did. I agree. But you can not give up land and still claim all air and water rights to that land.

"2. After the Oslo Accords, the Palestinians began the intifada rather than forcing their own police to police the terrorist, they joined them."

One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighters. It does absolutely no good to pretend Palestinians are somehow more terrifying than Isrealis. Or more prone to killing, because Isrealis actually kill more Palestinians than Palestinians kill Isrealis.

'3. The Palestinian leadership refused the offers Israel made that would have furthered their own statehood. They were given 95% of what they asked for but they wanted 100% so Arafat turned it down."

I am not saying it wasn't a good deal, there are war mongers on both sides of the river. And again, the dispute over air and water rights was that other 5%.

"4. Arafat used money from his 'government' to fund the intifada against Israel. "

And george w bush uses our money to kill and torture people with. We give the Isrealis money to go in and kick Palestinians off of their land so they can bulldoze their homes and remake it a Jewish subdivision.

We do not just give them money, we gave them NUKES for Gods sake!

5. Iraq and middle east countries have funded the suicide-murder bombers in Israel."

Ohhhh, and they got Iraq back good for it too. All they had to do was slip some forged documents in about Niger yellowcake and sit back and watch as our kids were manipulated into dying to take out the number one threat...TO ISREAL.

"Also neighboring countries have never opened their countries for Palestinians to have a state or citizenship there. They purposely force them to endure miserable conditions" because it helps them stir up Middle-East anger against Israel"

Agreed, they do exactly that. However, Jordan alone has millions...millions of Palestinian refugees in their country. Is their bitterness towards Isreal that farfetched when their own country is overran by Isreals problems?

"So with that list of things that Israel continues to fight for her existence, then let us agree that Israel does have the right to defend herself and her people. "

I never said they had no right to defend themselves. I say they have no right to commit unthinkable crimes against others in the name of that survival, and they damn sure do not have a right to scream 'Hitler Hitler Hitler" everytime you try to call them on it.

"This is like an argument between two (or more) siblings."

I do not really see it that way. This is a civil war between two races, and if we should not be involved in civil wars in other places, then just because it is Isreal is not enough for me to care about theirs, much less FUND IT.

"They are all responsible and they all have responsibility to fix the situation equitably."

Absolutely.

"But as a parent we can not tolerate violence against one sibling and we can not tolerate lies and distortions from any of them. And that is what we get from all sides. "

Right on.

Christy,

I appreciate your response here rather than the new thread. Honestly, I had hoped that my thread header would lead to discussion about dealing with the feelings all of us have between being hawks and being doves--be it whether you're discussing Israel or America. But as with any blog things don't always go the direction one hopes the conversation will go.

Now, just a quick reply because I really am getting nowhere on my work.

I agree with some of what you say and disagree with others. I think one thing that Oncall and I have in common is the sense of trying to handle our 'dove' side while still support the right for Israel to exist and still recognise that like all of us, Israel has made both good decisions and bad.

But the fact is, that it will always boil back down to 50 years ago, because most of us, even those in America, have gapping holes in our family due to our second/third cousins, aunts, uncles, grandparents being murdered in the camps. That's one reason why some people can look at it and say, "Fifty years ago..." whereas, I look at it and say, "Fifty years ago two-thirds of my dad's family was murdered in TRreblinka, Dachau, Auschwitz, ..." or I say, "My mom's family escaped Russia but my Uncle Julius bore the tattoo on his arm from Auschwitz until the day he died."

I agree with you that to both sides they are freedom fighters but take a look at all the camps organized to annihilate them and think about if 2/3rds of your family was murdered in one of them. I think if that were the case for each of us, then we would find better ways to work together to protect everyone's family.

I also agree with you that too many deaths have occurred on both sides. No matter what, there is no excuse for the leadership on both sides who have made such dire mistakes--such as Arafat calling for the infitada during the whole negotiations. I remember reading about how the Palestinian people didn't even know why there was an infitata 4 years after the infitada began! So that call is certainly much like the comparison of us going into Iraq.

With regards to the water--Wouldn't one expect Syria and Jordan to make sure that there was a pipeline of water to Palestinian terrotories. Don't forget that the territories could have also held Israelis hostage between them in what some might have called "The Bermuda Triangle."

Though actually the water situation wasn't the breaking point in the negotiations with Arafat. The issue at large was the city of Jeruselum and the holy area where many Christian, Jewish, and Arab shrines (holy grounds) and Temples are scattered. Arafat wanted all of Jeruselum. Israel was willing to make Jeruselum an international city.

With regards to any accusation that Israel set up the Nigerian forgeries, I have not seen anything to suggest that is the case. If you have evidence of it, I would certainly look, but from my understanding, it was an Italian person (name burried in my head somewhere) who was suggested as the forger.

While I'm sure they're not upset that Saddam is gone, I also suspect they have a much more pragmatic view of the region--and that view is simply--that the leaders are interchangable and that Israel must defend itself.

At anyrate, I believe all of us truly hate discussions about the Middle East situation and Israel. It had definately not been my point in beginning the topic. But as I stated before, it is the groups of doves, the Christians, Jews, Arabs, who meet to promote education and understanding and who join the fight in the political process who can institute major changes within policy.

That had been my goal in bringing it up. How can we as doves promote major changes in the infratructure and policy at home and abroad. And one huge way, I believe that can happen is through international diplomacy. (Sorry all that the thread definitely turned in the most awkward positions of all.)

I hope we at the DCP can call a truce about it and that we can find a way to institute our own peace department no matter if our heritage is with the Christians, the Jews, the Arabs, the Indians, the Athiests, the Budhists, ...just anyone!

PS. I obviously lied about that being a quick reply. A. It's long. B. It took too long to write!

Now back to writing my exams.

BTW folks...

Just want all of you to appreciate the beautiful angel-dove I finally located to post. I thought it was an amazingly apt picture to represent us. I'm just sorry for the label emblazed over the picture.

Absolutely. A truce where our ideas can be fully explored instead of resorting to the crap most discussions on Israel/Palestine turn into. (my spelling sucks, forgive that too.)

Anyways, I am waiting for paint to dry so I would like to explore it further a minute.

I think the situation there is the ultimate hawk/dove riddle, and it is no surprise the discussion keeps going back to it when we talk of these types of war/peace intersections.

This...

"Fifty years ago two-thirds of my dad's family was murdered in TRreblinka, Dachau, Auschwitz, ..." or I say, "My mom's family escaped Russia but my Uncle Julius bore the tattoo on his arm from Auschwitz until the day he died."

There are so many things I would like to say and ask about this whole thing. First off, I do understand what your family has gone through. It was unspeakably evil and shocking what happened in that place. There is so much I would like to know about your own personal history. I am not surrounded by many Houlocoust survivors, however my grandfathers both fought and both absolutely despised Nazis until the day they died and they had good reason too.

But as far as the discussion goes, this is my point... What happened there, all those years ago, can not be used to justify what is happening to the Palestinians even now. Yet it is used to justify it in every single discussion I have ever seen on the subject.

It all boils down to Hitler killed Jews, Too bad for the Palestinians. It is not a rational chain of logic.

I listen to religious Christians all the time speak of Isreal...'The Holy Land'... 'Where Jesus Walked"...whatever, I have heard these people utter the name 'Israel" as if Jesus Himself payed attention to every time it was mentioned. They say it reverently... and speak of high profile Israelis as if they are ALLLLL some sort of seperate and special entity.

To this country Israel = the Government of Jesus. Period. To even suggest Israels policies may suck makes you and antisemitic who forgot Adolf Hitler.

It is a totally freaky way to have a conversation about politics. Needless to say, it does not facilitate a frank and honest discussion about policy or anything else.

I want to go back to our families. I am sorry for that happening, I am sorry we are a weak species who can not stop doing those things. Living with those memories can never be easy.

But I do understand how devastating it is. I tell people I am Cherokee, but only because they are the tribe my own family wound up with after The Trail Of Tears. I am actually most likely Creek, whos survivors were folded into the larger tribal structure of the Cherokee after their own people were anniahlated.

I look Creek. And my own government killed 95% of all people who looked like me. NINETY FIVE PERCENT.

It was not genocide. It was an extermination. My fathers family can only be traced back to a single traumatized 13 year old who was pregnant when she came off the Trail of Tears in Oklahoma. She was most likely from Kentuky, but ... no one knows. Wherever it was, someone took it from her. Then they took Oklahoma too. I was born there 5 generations later. My grandfather refused to live on poisioned land, so thankfully I do not come from the Reservations. She is a haunting figure in my families history. There is no history before her. Not any they care to teach anyway

And to this day, no one has even said..sorry. And in the history books, only one act of genocide is actually allowed to be called genocide. What Hitler did to the Jews in Europe in the 1930s and 40s.

Our own extermination of people and theft of their lands will not be taught anytime soon.

Because of what happened here, we could use the same standard we apply to Isael, the right to defend themselves, and apply it to the fact the natives here absolutely would have that right as well, but no one will tolerate the idea of indians using it as an excuse to kill who they are threatened by.

Israel does not get a free pass just because stupid people all over think Israel is somehow incapabable of doing any wrong, simply because it must be ran by the Baby Jesus party.

How could Baby Jesus possibly be wrong?

I heard someone say once 'If you figure out the Israeli/Palestinian situation you would solve 95% of the worlds problems."

Well, I think I just figured it out. No one any where at any time should tolerate any excuse used to kill other people.

Just put down your freaking guns and STOP KILLING EACH OTHER. REFUSE TO KILL EACH OTHER. How hard is that? Oh right, too much money invested to make sure it is more profitable to kill people.

I am a hawk, and I never understood why Israel is treated as a bunch of doves who only kill out of an absolute moral right.

It is far more complicated than that, and self defense actually has very little to do with the spoils of war.

Christy,

Long family history stories--a few even bitter sweet such as the time my grandma discovered her long lost brother (or cousin) in a dry cleaner in the middle of nowhere essentially. They had been separated when they were younger but both happened to have walked into the same dry cleaners at the same time. (It's actually an amazing story. I will have to listen to her oral history more to do a better job of describing the event. lol--frankly, I can't remember if it was a brother or cousin or what...but they had been separated by the war.)

Regarding the rest, it's just sort of overload to me to think of a way to respond. Centuries of bitterness and hatred on behalf of all governments, religions, and people can never get put aside just by putting aside your weapons. Or rather maybe the phrase, "Easier said than done" is more appropriate.

However, honey, I think you give the nation and the people of Israel too much status by calling them hawks. There is a certain party within the Israeli gov't where that is definitely true, much like the neoconservative members of our country are. But for the most part, the people of Israel are doves. But they are also fighters when they are threatened.

And it is just like all Palestinians are not hawks or suicide bombers, and you would never accept anyone who said they all were.

I think when we talk about Israel, Christianity, Palestinians, and Arabs we touch upon one of mankinds greatest wounds. Because within those religions and peoples, there are centuries and centuries of slavery, murder, and war that can never seem to be forgotten or forgiven.

And it's with the same rage and sensitivity we feel towards others or towards our own that we continue to pour salt onto the wounds instead of finding ways to cleanse the wounds and heal them.

I think that is what NMP was getting at when she posted about nationalism. (At least the way I understood it.) I think she was saying, "No matter your history...put aside your nationality or country, your religion, your patterns of anger or distrust, and come to the table and work together for peace."

You said it too via "Just put down your FREAKING ARMS..."

And I'm saying it too--sort of in my own way. I just haven't figured out my way past this circular discussion to figure out what the heck I said!

But I thought it anyways!

Hey Christie,

Since it's probably only you and I and a hundred million spies on this thread, I will use you as my little confessor--if there's such a word.

You asked about my family history. Well, I have to tell you that for the longest time, I never looked at anything to do with my family history and the holocaust. It was probably some sort of self-protection. For the longest time, I avoided all history lessons in the Holocaust. But suddenly I got interested in it because I wanted to learn how people fought back underground. That fascinated me.

I think I got interested after my father died; after he spent the last year of his life volunteering more in the Jewish traditions. But I don't think that was what made me start investigating the underground revolution. After he died, my siblings and I were going through his possessions and there was this huge wall chart of his family tree that one of his relatives had researched and drawn in black ink and calligraphy.

The chart is framed and it's probably 8 times bigger than the canvass you sent me. And the paper is sort of like a parchment looking sort of ivory or antiquated. My brother, the one I discussed above, kept this drawing.

At any rate, on this drawing it listed many generations from my dad's side, but up until the generation before my dad, they all lived in Germany or Poland. (I am not sure how many generations were listed.)

Anyways, I had seen that drawing back in my younger days but I was still refusing to pay attention to the Holocaust. But after he died, looking and counting all those lost relatives became a secret fascination to me.

It's something that is really haunting when you see your own family tree and the branches filled with the names, birth dates, and if known the date they died (or ages)(or were incinerated) and what camp they were at.

I think Christy, that the Jewish community before WWII was already small and decreasing. The Holocaust decreased it exponentially!

At any rate, you asked about my family and there ya go. That's what I know of all the relatives on my dad's side.

I am not sure I remember where exactly my mom's family comes from. I believe it's some where in Russia. I've heard stories of great-grandparents (aunts-uncles etc) arriving via a squishy ship I believe sometime during the first World War. They were members of the Jewish immigrants who worked in the sweatshops.

My sister is a historian. One day I started asking her what she remembers. She remembers about as much as I do. As a result of peaking her interest, she's in the process of doing some research and finding out the ship they came in on, etc...

Anyways, I have no if that answers any of your curiosity but there you go.

Christy,

The trail of tears was one of the things our country should be most ashamed of doing. Slavery is another. I'm sure there are many other things to get disgusted about.

Sometimes people and governments just suck big time!

Now we can proudly brag about accepting torture, throwing out the Geneva Conventions, and starting illegal wars.

Sometimes people and governments just suck big time!

AMEN

Gonzales Hires a Top Gun
Web exclusive
By Michael Isikoff and Mark Hosenball
Newsweek
Still under investigation by Congress and Justice Department lawyers who once worked for him, the former attorney general has turned to a leading Washington attorney to help him beat the rap.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21224607/site/newsweek/

Rossi--You probably want to switch to the top thread.

Sparrow,

I will tell you what I was thinking when I said I have many questions about your family history. This may sound odd but bear with me.

I was thinking I would like to know thier names, ages, where they lived, and where they died. There are many reasons I would like to know the details.

In genocide, there are so many victims, but it still is always helpful to know specifically whom and how many people you are talking about in particular. Their names still matter. You are a lovely person, I am certain they were too.

There was a study not too long ago about how the more victims there are, we tend to grow less and less sympathetic because it is so overwhelming and too much to bear, we start refusing to see them as individuals each caught in their own personal set of circumstances.

I do not want to have this conversation like that. A short biography of each you have one for can provide a universe more information than most other things we could say about it.

If you were to list them, a list like that also says far more than anything words can even describe. Even if you had a relatively 'small' family, it still could be quite a long list. I do not just enjoy reading about such things, but I feel it is my duty as a human to bear witness to them.

And I also believe when you speak the names of the dead, they return to us and live again.

I am very glad to see all of us here use the name of the Iraqi girl that was done so wrong, Abeer. The one they burned after raping and killing her and her family.

Everytime that childs name is said, it is that much more likely she will return and seek justice. She deserves it.

I never see any Palestinians actually named in our media when they die, you have to look for their names. I find that so odd in contrast to every Israeli killed being named, archived, listed, remembered, with all due care and attention.

I can understand how people may get the impression I just don't like Israel, but it is a dead wrong perception. I just do not see any way to justify hating the Palestinians. I like both equally, I dislike both equally.

I actually think both sides are wrong and should lay down their damn guns NOW until it can be worked out with no one dying.

I know, easier said than done, but in the end, it actually is just that simple. Put down the f*cking gun son and just WALK AWAY!

As a hawk, I know I am not OBLIGATED to fight some battles. Yes, just because I refuse to fight will not work out the problem, but the problem can not be solved at gunpoint.

Only those not afraid can settle it. I have yet to see an Israeli or Palestinian without the pall of fear surrounding them.

Yes, I say Israel is hawks. Their entire nation and economy is based on military occupation. There is no way they can be doves. The entire nation is a military system, even requiring two years of military service from each citizen.

The Israelis who unfortunately also resort to warmongering, are also doing so out of the need for war profits. If there were no war, there would be no profit. It is in their best interest to keep the war going. Where that leaves the Israeli people is totally screwwed, just like we are here with warmongers run amok.

I think by far most Israelis want peace and are doves at heart, but there is no way their government is in any way dovish.

It is always a problem when war mongers and war profiteers are the ones in power, no matter what war they are mongering.

Christy,

They have 2 years of manditory service because they need to protect their country. Actually, I think if we had two years of manditory service, and the Bush twins would have been involved in the war because they were the 'proper' age at that time, Bush woudln't have been so cavelier about leading us to war.

And so while you think of that service as being proof of their hawkishness; I disagree. Because when family, friends, and associates all have kids who might die or be maimed you must be much more careful about when you call a war. That makes you a dove. But maybe a dove who can become a scavenger-hawk if attacked.

But this does end up being a circular discussion because as you said--both sides just need to put down the stones, the weapons, and chill out baby!

(Regarding the names, if I end up at my brother's place I will see if I can't grab a picture of it and list the names for you. Oncall, Karen, Marjorie, please list yours if you'd like.)

Christy,

If you feel dissociated from it, you may want to hitch a ride to DC and see the Holocaust museum there. We have one up here. I don't know if there is one in Atlanta or anywhere down south other than Florida perhaps?

No, i dont really feel disassociated from it. As I said my own family was in on the fight and we all believed it was just then and now.

WW2 is one of those big huge subjects that you could spend a lifetime studying from only one angle. I try to see it from as many perspectives as possible.

I have known Holocoust survivors, but Louisiana is not a place where many wound up. Like most immigrants they tended to cluster around their ports of entry here.

The names are important to me, because like I said a brief biography conveys so much information, not just about them personally.

Like with Iraq I guess I am disassociated in the sense that there are so many and there are none in my actual presence. Naming them keeps alive in our minds even though we can not see them or never knew them, but like with Iraq, it is hard to get a sense of exactly how many did die because it is simply hard to imagine that many people dead.

If I had names of my family that did not survive the Trail of Tears I would list them too, but I will never know their names.

My grandmother that did survive was named Jahaza.

This conversation reminds me of that stupid song..

My grandma and your grandma
Were sittin' by the fire.
My grandma told your grandma:
"I'm gonna set your flag on fire!"