Open Thread TGIF Version

I want to thank those who have been popping into the irc lately. We've had some excellent discussions, both on-topic or not.

We had an excellent discussion last night on election fraud. We also discussed jobs and the overall re-alignment of wealth and opportunity in this country since GWB took office and what the consequences of that might be.

V suggested that we discuss this in more depth in the irc to generate some action ideas.

So pick a day, place, and time and let us know when you can squeeze it in.

I will be available to pop in...

Oh, nevermind.

Poor. poor kitty. That is just not right.

If this is a true story, then it is probably the most tragic love story imaginable. Romeo and Juliet had it easy.

Twins separated at birth have married each other without realizing they were brother and sister, it has been revealed.

The British couple's marriage has now been annulled by the High Court after judges ruled the marriage had never validly existed.

The identities of the brother and sister and details of how they fell in love and married are being kept secret. Soon after they were born they were separated and adopted by different families.

Neither was told they had a twin and had no idea they were blood relatives until after their wedding.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,321991,00.html

A first! Snow falls in Baghdad

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080111/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_first_snow_in_memory

Ummmmmm.

Wow.

Tighter driver's license rules coming out

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Americans born after Dec. 1, 1964, will have to get more secure driver's licenses in the next six years under ambitious post-9/11 security rules to be unveiled Friday by federal officials.

The Homeland Security Department has spent years crafting the final regulations for the REAL ID Act, a law designed to make it harder for terrorists, illegal immigrants and con artists to get government-issued identification. The effort once envisioned to take effect in 2008 has been pushed back in the hopes of winning over skeptical state officials.

Even with more time, more federal help and technical advances, REAL ID still faces stiff opposition from civil liberties groups.

To address some of those concerns, the government now plans to phase in a secure ID initiative that Congress passed into law in 2005. Now, DHS plans a key deadline in 2011 -- when federal authorities hope all states will be in compliance -- and then further measures to be enacted three years later, according to congressional staffers who spoke to The Associated Press on condition of anonymity because an announcement had not yet been made. DHS officials briefed legislative aides on the details late Thursday.

Without discussing details, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff promoted the final rules for REAL ID during a meeting Thursday with an advisory council.

"We worked very closely with the states in terms of developing a plan that I think will be inexpensive, reasonable to implement and produce the results," he said. "This is a win-win. As long as people use driver's licenses to identify themselves for whatever reason there's no reason for those licenses to be easily counterfeited or tampered with."

In order to make the plan more appealing to cost-conscious states, federal authorities drastically reduced the expected cost from $14.6 billion to $3.9 billion, a 73 percent decline, according to Homeland Security officials familiar with the plan.

The American Civil Liberties Union has fiercely objected to the effort, particularly the sharing of personal data among government agencies. The DHS and other officials say the only way to make sure an ID is safe is to check it against secure government data; critics like the ACLU say that creates a system that is more likely to be infiltrated and have its personal data pilfered.

In its written objection to the law, the ACLU claims REAL ID amounts to the "first-ever national identity card system," which "would irreparably damage the fabric of American life."

The September 11 attacks were the main motivation for the changes.

The hijacker-pilot who flew into the Pentagon, Hani Hanjour, had a total of four driver's licenses and ID cards from three states. The DHS, which was created in response to the attacks, has created a slogan for REAL ID: "One driver, one license."

By 2014, anyone seeking to board an airplane or enter a federal building would have to present a REAL ID-compliant driver's license, with the notable exception of those more than 50 years old, Homeland Security officials said.

more...
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/01/11/real.id.ap/index.html

Pour Le Monde
by Crowded House

He imagines the world
As the angels sending
Not the ghost of a man
Who is tied up to the chair

And he wants to believe
That his life has a meaning
With his hand on his heart
Pour le monde, pas pour la guerre
And I wake up blind
Like my dreams were too bright
And I lost my regard
For the good things that I had
And the radio was sad

When you listen for good
To find that nothing out there can touch you
'Cause the liars moved in
And they believe their own
Dark medicine

You act so nonchalant
That he is not a dog
Perform for you in the stadium
For the world, not for the war

And he tries to believe
Though it might lead to heartache
In the night indigo
Pour le monde, pas pour la guerre
Pour le monde, pas pour la guerre

When you listen for good
In the hope that comes to nothing
As the liars moved in
And they believe their own
Dark medicine

Believing it's good
Behind their jaded eyes
A dilemma

He's the best
You've ever had
He's so low
You never know
He's the best
You've ever had

He's the best
You've ever had
He's so low
You'll never know

Here we go...

Giuliani campaign staffers forgo paychecks
Relinquishing January pay 'voluntary' and limited to senior aides

MYRTLE BEACH, S.C. - About a dozen senior campaign staffers for Rudy Giuliani are forgoing their January paychecks, aides said Friday, a sign of possible money trouble for the Republican presidential candidate.

"We have enough money, but we could always use more money," contended Mike DuHaime, Giuliani's campaign manager and one of those who now is working for free. "We want to make sure we have enough to win."

more...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22608810/

Time to scare up more of those $9.11 dough nations.

Responding here to monkey's article about Rove's attack on Obama from the last thread. Do we care monkey? It was an Op Ed piece in Rupert Murdoch's Wall Street Journal. Is it very likely that Democratic party voters would read it and be influence by it? Even folks who have never voted before would be hardly likely to bother with the WSJ.

Those democrats who do read Murdoch's latest acquisition, would already know that Karl Rove is yesterday's news and yesterday's problems. He really needs to be rounded up with the rest of the upper echelon of the organised crime gang running the American government. We could give a gun to Cheney and tell him to shoot but try not to hit Rove - a sitting target. Fun.

Asian-Americans, especially South Asians, faced difficulties when they voted in 2006 midterm elections:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7182758.stm

Do read the end of the article, for a feedback from a Republican South Asian, who has "never heard" of such acts of discrimination.

I do believe being Republican helps at the polls. The Republican-leaning Asian-Americans in my area don't have problems either, though working-class Democrats in inner cities certainly do. And in my county, it's been possible to get voting materials in the Republicans' official language, Korean, well before there were enough Korean speakers to mandate Korean materials by law.

woz

WSJ has tremendous respect among the finance sector elites, who are overwhelmingly right wing. It's required reading at business schools, even if you happen to be Democratic/liberal.

WSJ was reactionary even well before the Murdoch takeover (i.e. it advocated for California's gay marriage ban in 2000 - what is a FINANCIAL newspaper doing on SOCIAL matters?), and has disproportionate influence on the "haves."

sparrow - the thread header - what can I say? There've been days I've felt like the cat looks. But they were in the days of my youth - up to about age 35. And 35 is youth. Now.

More and more and more whistleblowers will be out before the end of the year. Obama should turn those signatures to Wexler's petition into votes for himself by promising legal action against the current administration. There are plenty of witnesses judging by those that have appeared, without disguise, on American documentaries over this past year. And each witness has plenty of evidence of wrong-doing.

What's coming out right now, is a tiny fraction of the sh*t when it really does hit the fan.

Yes Ally, but there wouldn't be as many Democratic readers as there are Republican readers. And I expect the Democratic readers who do read it are certainly not still sucked in by Rove's impression of his own smug self-importance. If they are, the democrats don't need their votes. Plenty of others worth getting. Democrats who are successful in business, are so DESPITE, the republican slant on all things opportunistic in the world of wealth.

woz

Don't underestimate the tendency of some Democrats to suck in prevailing Republican talking points, start talking like Republicans, and eventually become Republicans.

Cases in point: Zell Miller. Joe Lieberman. And my high school friend who always thought McCain would make a great Democrat (he married a hardcore Republican, and now is a Republican himself, because Dems are "too soft" on illegal immigration).

If all you read is the WSJ (and its Op-Ed in particular), you WILL surely become a Republican.

And as much as I hate the Republicans, I do agree with them that my state Democrats are very anti-business. Am I repeating Republican talking points? Some Dems will surely say so.

Shag Off Karl! He will get all the attention he so desperately craves when we arrest his arse for WAR CRIMES, complete with a fair trial and decent hanging.

New drivers license rules. Boy I feel safer already! So glad they have the time to spend protecting we the little people.

My favorite part..."The September 11 attacks were the main motivation for the changes."

Motivation. They meant excuse.

What a grand GRAND muey grande excuse it has been too!

Indeed.

Good for everything from revoking civil liberties to illegal invasions to lying and TREASON. 911 is the reason BRITNEY IS CRAZY! OMFG! Ofcourse it is!

RON PAUL IS GETTING HAMMERED AT YOUTUBE OVER STUPID, RACIST REMARKS HE HAS MADE OVER THE YEARS:

yOUNG TURKS/ AIR AMERICA:

I don't doubt that ally - my point is that they are actually republicans, masquerading as democrats if they are so easily influenced by *white trash* such as Rove, so let them go. They're not worth worrying about. And if, this actually represents the majority of the democratic party then America and the world is in very grave danger.

Ahhhh. I love our Deputy PM. She'll make an excellent PM one day.

Gillard's war on poverty
Tony Wright
January 12, 2008

DEPUTY Prime Minister Julia Gillard is on an ambitious crusade to harness the authority of all Labor Government ministers in a war on poverty.

She also plans to tackle loneliness in Australian cities' fast-growing outer suburbs.

Ms Gillard said yesterday she wanted to use her ministry of "social inclusion" — part of her super-portfolio that includes education, employment and workplace relations — to help lift the most disadvantaged communities out of their seemingly endless cycles of joblessness, welfare dependency, crime and child neglect.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/gillards-war-on-poverty/2008/01/11/1199988589976.html

Surprising source for these sentiments

Memo new president: let's end some fear
Madeleine Albright
January 12, 2008

I BELIEVE the most precious gift the next president could bestow upon America is an end to the politics of fear.

Fear, of course, has its place. Seven decades ago, the world did not fear Hitler enough. Today, Iraq remains a powder keg, Afghanistan a struggle, Iran a potential danger and North Korea a puzzle not yet solved. Pakistan combines all the elements that give us an international migraine.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/memo-new-president-lets-end-some-fear/2008/01/11/1199988585650.html

Olbermann Talks Office Politics, Other Politics
If MSNBC anchor Keith Olbermann were to write a book about Office Politics 101, he'd call it "Do As I Write, Not As I Did for 20 Years." Olbermann discusses office politics and other issues in the February issue of Men's Journal magazine, out yesterday.

In the interview with Paul Tullis, one focus is Olbermann's habit of, "trashing people publicly, even his employers."

But he seems to be doing well for himself in the office now. Tullis cites a senior executive at MSNBC, who says, "Keith runs MSNBC. It's been an amazing turnaround, because two years ago they were going to cancel him. Because of his success, he's in charge. Chris Matthews is infuriated by it."

The article also touches on Olbermann's goals, in the context of his main competition, Fox News Channel. "I'd like it to be the accurate counterweight to Fox. My attitude is not to counterbalance them because they're conservatives; it's counterbalancing because some of their stuff is outlandishly in violation of every tenet of responsible broadcasting," he says.

http://www.mediabistro.com/tvnewser/msnbc/olbermann_talks_office_politics_other_politics_74648.asp?c=rss

Christy

911 is the reason BRITNEY IS CRAZY! OMFG! Ofcourse it is!

Of course. Not only that, but she supported W, so she has only herself to blame.

woz

And if, [those manipulated by Rove] actually represents the majority of the democratic party then America and the world is in very grave danger.

Agreed with you there. The trouble is that the Democratic Party needs to cater to so many people - the corporatists AND the unionists, the immigrants AND the gays, etc, etc. Sadly, many will be very Republican-like in their world outlook. As NMP likes to say, this is inherently a conservative nation.

Ralpheh

RON PAUL IS GETTING HAMMERED AT YOUTUBE OVER STUPID, RACIST REMARKS HE HAS MADE OVER THE YEARS

That's why neoliberals are never to be trusted.

Christy

Back to the whole driver's license thing...

A driver's license is a LICENSE to DRIVE A MOTOR VEHICLE. Nothing more, nothing less. My California driver's license plainly says so on the back - it does NOT establish eligibility for employment, voter registration, or public benefits.

Those who are trying to turn it into an all-purpose ID are missing the point.

I'm all for issuing driver's licenses to foreigners, including visitors and illegals. Of course, such licenses must be so marked, even though the immigrant communities will be up in arms over that.

Obama picks up endorsements:

Jesse Jackson Jr.
Gov. Napolitano
Gary Hart
2 labor unions in Nevada - the Culinary Union and the SEIU....

this was reported on NPR this afternoon

That's great ralph, but the Nevada union endorsements were out a few days ago - it was mentioned here too actually. But, it's good nevertheless. Knowing the kind of drivel the opposition will beat up as time edges closer to the big day, it is all good news.

That's why neoliberals are never to be trusted.
January 11, 2008 5:45 PM

@@@@@@@

I never did trust Paul. His followers are NOT Republicans - they are mostly libertarians and young people who are easily swayed and fooled; and angry males who want to be off the grid. I was impressed with Paul's anti-war message - which, unfortunately might really be based, not on morality or truthfulness, but on the pure greed of not wanting to spend money on stupid wars.

But I give Paul this - he is an excellent debater and he knows his arguements and talking points on foreign policy better than John McCain, (or Romney or Huckabee, for that matter). He is the most persuasive and eloquent speaker for non-intervention in the Middle East.

Paul plays the dangerous game of being a Republican before Republican audiences and a Libertarian before Libertarians. And he has a racist/wacko following, a surprising number of whom are internet savvy.

That's great ralph, but the Nevada union endorsements were out a few days ago - it was mentioned here too actually. But, it's good nevertheless. Knowing the kind of drivel the opposition will beat up as time edges closer to the big day, it is all good news.
Januar

@@@@@@@@

There must be a subterraenian, anti-Clinton wing in the Democratic party -

Kerry
Edwards
Gore?
Richardson (who threw his Iowa delegates to Obama)
Hart
(didn't Bill Bradley endorse Obama, too?)

and now Napolitano...

Ralpheh

Good points you are making. Paul is passionate and well-reasoned, compared to the rest of the Republican neocon/theocratic field.

But as you point out, he is triangulating his positions to suit the audience... and that is NOT gonna work.

You know how life brings you a fresh perspective each day...

The dog puked this morning.

Twice.

Are you looking and feeling like this?

Yes.

Is that you looking in my windows again?

There must be a subterraenian, anti-Clinton wing in the Democratic party -

Why must there be some sort of Clinton hating group out there for Democrats in office to prefer a different candidate?

Why the Clintoncentric worldview?

Kerry's endorsement has little to do with the Clintons, and everything to do with the kind of person JK really is--politically smart. There's many, many things that JK would like to unclusterf*** while he's in the Senate after his reelection.

Frankly, I have a very difficult time imagining a Hillary win that would have the coattails to get us a firm 60 seat majority in the Senate, which is where this game will be played should there be a strong likliehood of a Democratic win for President. Kerry gets the politics of this thing, and while I don't think he bears any animonsity towards the Clintons, nor do I think he bears any love, either.

Obama is currently running the type of campaign that could have very strong coattails. So the issue now moves to how get the Senate. That's an Obama campaign and victory.

THe most important thing that Kerry had to contribute to the Obama campaign was the one thing I have yet to hear anyone mention, which is the timing.

In Kerry making the announcement when he did, it turned Clinton's miracle win, HUGE story, into a one day news event instead of a one week-one month news event. Now, Clinton has had to agree to an hour interview with Russert for Meet the Press on Sunday.

JK's timing of his statement and doing it in JRE's backyard, combined with taking Hillary out of the news cycle with the biggest story since Dewey defeats Truman, is about as politically brilliant a one-two punch as you are likely to see.

Just read on CNN that McCain especially, and Hillary somewhat, have received a huge bump from the NH "results".

A little too convenient for the establishment, n'est-ce pas?

McCain had very limited support nationwide prior to NH and his speeches, etc in NH were rather short of riveting.

The establishment was shocked by the winners of the Iowa caucuses. But the people weren't...that's who they voted for. And now the people are shocked by the winners of NH - because that's not who they voted for...it's who the establishment wanted to win.

What sucks is, a machine-vote recount is just as open to hacking.

People need some way to take a receipt of their vote - either a carbon copy or an ATM-style receipt or a screen shot, with a tracking number. Then if they did a recount, people could bring in their votes and compare if they wanted to.

Imagine for a moment if everyone put a big sign in their window that said whom they voted for. Just by driving around your neighborhood you could easily see if votes were counted accurately or not. Just imagine, maybe your crazy right-wing neighbors actually voted for somebody else. Maybe your neighborhood isn't as blue, or as red, or as purple, as you thought. Maybe people just THINK that there's a certain level of support for certain candidates.

The establishment has a hell of a lot to lose if a non-establishment candidate gets elected. A HELL of a lot. And they're running scared, and they have a great advantage in terms of money, and power, and connections. They will stop at nothing to stay in power.

But we have the power of the majority. Their one great battle tactic is to convince the majority that they are, in fact, the minority so they will be scared and not speak up. As in 2000. As in 2004. As in the run-up to the Iraq war. As in post-9/11. That we're some crazy fringe when in actuality, we are the majority. They are the crazy fringe. We have the power of numbers.

We are not blue against red, race against race, male against female, liberal against conservative; we are not bitter enemies in wars of abortion, religion, the environment, immigration, sexual orientation, labor, national defense, or any of a hundred other points of division and conquering.

We all want our children to grow up healthy, our jobs to be secure, our standard of living to be comfortable, our streets and houses safe at night, our work force educated and innovative and productive, our diplomats respected, our childhood golden and our retirement years silver; we all want a fair and supportive and honest and hard-working and non-intrusive and forward-thinking government that is seen and felt only when we need it but has always planned for those moments, like a wise and benevolent elder relative.

Our differences are only what make us unique, not what divide us; we must not let the elite and frightened minority that rules us shatter our strength of numbers.

We can take back this country. We must.

Another endorsement for Obama:

Senator Tim Johnson...

BTW: the polls say that Obama has a substantial lead in South Carolina...

There must be a subterraenian, anti-Clinton wing in the Democratic party -

Why must there be some sort of Clinton hating group out there for Democrats in office to prefer a different candidate?

Why the Clintoncentric worldview?

@@@@@@@@@@@

Before Iowa there was a slew of Hillary endorsements big and small - people hopping on the bandwagon:

In my state of Michigan, two prominent democrats - Senator Stabenow and State Senate Minority leader Schauer endorsed Hillary.

Let me say some other things:

I like Bill Clinton - I thought he was a good president. I find him to be very talented and able and hard-working. Since Bill has left office (however) he has strayed toward George Bush Senior which I find offensive, especially since Bush Sr. orchestrated the election theft of 2000.

Hillary to me is phony, not able, insecure and greedy for power (precisely someone you don't want in the Oval Office).

To my knowledge she has done nothing of note in her six years in the Senate except vote in favor of the Kyl-Lieberman amendment and the IAOF in 2002.

If Hillary wins the nominatioin ( and wins the presidency), it would be a set back for the Democratic party (nominating a war-hawk/DLC/ Republican lite/ incompetent as Dubya)

Bad for the nation - (just trading on her name and her husband's popularity; and not her ability)

Bad for our democracy (people only voting for Bushes and Clintons for three decades)..... resembling a banana Republic

(hey sparrow...)

(you wanted a thread header?!...see my post above, starting with "Imagine...")

(ok so I didn't intend to write one, it just came out that way)

(I'm at work so can't IRC tonight...)

V

That is a very eloquently put thread header. Hope sparrow posts it.

Big arms deal for Saudi Arabia

Bush will notify Congress on Monday of his intent to sell $20 billion in weapons, including precision-guided bombs, to Saudi Arabia, moving up the announcement to coincide with the president's arrival in Riyadh, a senior official said in Washington. The official announcement will kick off a 30-day review period during which Congress could try to block the sale, which has raised concern among some lawmakers.

Arriving at the airport in Kuwait, the president got a ceremonial red-carpet welcome and was presented with a bouquet of flowers. But he saw nothing like the torrent of public adulation showered on his father in a visit 15 years ago.

The tiny, oil-rich nation at the top of the Persian Gulf was invaded by Iraq's Saddam Hussein and liberated by a U.S.-led war ordered by Bush's father in 1991. Now, Kuwait is a major hub for U.S. troops and equipment deployed to Iraq.

At a palace surrounded by palm trees, Bush met with the emir, Sheik Sabah Al Ahmed Al Sabah. He told Bush he was delighted to have him in Kuwait. "We are equally delighted to see you working on issues that are very important to all of us here," Sheik Sabah said. It was not clear what issues he meant.

more on...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22604556/

Ok, so the country that was home to the majority of the 9/11 hijackers and the bin Laden family, will get $20 billion in arms...

Hmmmmm.

WEXLER TO SPEAK ABOUT IMPEACHMENT ON THE HOUSE FLOOR, TUESDAY NIGHT:

This was an email sent by Chief of Staff for Rep. Robert Wexler to a friend of Impeach for Peace:
Hi all,

Congressman Wexler will present the signatures he got on the floor of the house Tuesday night and make the case for hearings. It will be on C-Span and we will post the video as well as email the video to the near 200,000 on our list.

He will also mention by name other groups that have collected signatures and how many they have, including impeachbush.org.
[…]
All the best, Eric

Hey V.

http://www.fixingelections.blogspot.com/

BTW, on hillary. NH was her 'fire wall' but once you go anywhere but east, support for her drops out the bottom.

I doubt she would even get 20% here. John Edwards could easily take it from her here.

Global Warming: Tornado Near Portland, Snow in Baghdad
http://silencedmajority.blogs.com/silenced_majority_portal/2008/01/global-warming.html

Casey
I read that Kerry asked Obama to speak at the DNC convention in Boston (which I saw) and that launched Obama nationally and he released his book, and that Kerry wanted to endorse Obama before Iowa but decided to wait. The timing is good, yes, perfect. My hope is that Richardson dropped out and could somehow end up on an Obama ticket. I do not like to talk about such things early but in this case I've been hearing it all day. It's good that unions are starting to endorse Obama in the west but he needs more superdelegates because that's where Clinton has him beat several times. Do you know if they remain committed and if many of Edwards' could swing to Clinton if Edwards dropped out?

Gary Hart endorse Obama? Right on! That clinches it for me. I worked for Gary Hart. (I guess Condi Rice did too, but you know what I mean)

Kerry haters are calling his endorsement "kiss of death" and my husband heard it on Air America. I told him those are former Deaniacs and irrational Kerry haters and to ignore it and also that it's only on the internet and a big part of why I don't read many blogs or listen to Air America.

Ralpheh
I think there has always been kind of an anti-Clinton wing and I think it's mostly centered in the NE. I have always felt the same about both Clintons - lukewarm. Hillary overall has a liberal record, Bill overall a moderate record. http://www.ontheissues.org Then there are the things you point out - IWR, Kyl/Lieberman - an attempt to run to the middle - probably for those in the political establishment for a long time like her or McCain - the way to try to win.

I do not like negative campaigning toward Democrats. Despite their mistakes, I hate coming onto blogs and seeing/reading it. The Republicans need to receive most of the attacks. I understand why some people do it but I don't like it and don't want to engage in it.

for what it is worth, Ned Lamont of Connecticut is on the Obama Rama Soul Train!!!

He endorsed Obama at You Tube

Come on Tuesday. Come on Mr. Wexler!

Yall need to make sure to TELL EVERBODY you know to watch.

They will try to black out everything about it.

Come on tuesday!

Crossposted:

http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/veritasblog

Please come comment! :)

I've done that v - but I'm not supposed to. I confessed that I'm not American. I had 9 words left at the end. phew

V,

Your thread is posted.

Thanks sparrow!

Ok, so the country that was home to the majority of the 9/11 hijackers and the bin Laden family, will get $20 billion in arms...

Hmmmmm.

=======

How soon they forget Hmmmmmm?