Hey Senator McCain, About Vietnam...

Sparrows email exchange with me, to better understand why I wrote this.

Sparrow:...The only other comment I have you might take thw wrong way. The comment where you want john Kerry to answer...I am only saying that because he was part of Winter's Soldier; he was a war protester back then; he testified before congress (giving the military soldier's anti-war message), and he was attacked by Nixon back then and all the swiftboat liars too. So in my opinion, the portion about kerry would be better stated as sort of what I said above or left out all together.

Christy:

No, I understand what you are saying about Kerry, and I seriously thought about it before adding him, but this is why I did.

To me, John Kerry 'lost' for two reasons, one vote rigging, and two, he could never effectively counter his military record smears because of this very taboo. It is not really his fault but... then again it is.

Even though Kerry was a 'Winter Soldier' even to this day Kerry can not stand up and say ' Vietnam was a war crime, one in which I participated in and was awarded numerous medals for.'

Kerry can never ever be TOTALLY HONEST about Vietnam, because it will be the death of him politically. The reason it will be the death of him is because NO ONE wants to hear the truth. Even as they allude to the facts, they still refuse to put it into proper context. Even those who were not personally involved not responsible will still react to the kneejerk response which is EXACTLY what those responsible want. It keeps them shielded from accountability.

And this is the exact mechanic of the taboo that MUST be broken. This is the exact reason he could never effectively counter the Swiftboaters. And, for all that I think is heroic about John Kerry, his actual 'hero status' is based on his participation in what everyone knows in their hearts was a war crime.

No one with a brain would say 'I'm a war criminal. Vote for me!' so instead they turn criminals into 'heros' and we are all supposed to just go along with it. Like with mcmumbles, to question it is to question not his actual experience, but your own gratitude, your own patriotism, and your own morality.

Frankly I am so sick of the stigma of Vietnam, I really don't care if they are offended. I am offended at what they did in my name and expect me not to talk about. AND I am offended every time someone from another country throws Vietnam in my face to try to and question my nations moral standing. Even to this day, they did the crime, we do the time and that is what to me is offensive.

Leaving 3 million dead for no reason is offensive, I really do not care if mccrazy, John Kerry, or anyone else is outraged at my outrage.

If this crap had been dealt with THEN, it would not still be a problem now 30 years later.

Anyways, that is why I included him. Because it is not really right to put it all on a republican or all on mccrazy. It was all of them, all of us, all of our families. And it is a conversation that is AT LEAST 30 years overdue.

Hugs.
C

BTW, the point of this whole article is not really about taking personal responsibility on the part of the soldiers who were used to do the deed. The point is to break the taboo.

The exact same taboo is happening with Iraq. If you don't say 'I Support the Troops' you must be a traitor, so you will say it even knowing fully well that what is happening is a WAR CRIME from the first lie he told.

I do not consider soldiers to be 'war criminals' except in cases were guilt is undeniable. It is the ones giving the orders that are criminal and should be hanged.

However, I was taught from infancy that our soldiers are taught to refuse immoral or illegal orders. Yet how many of them ever actually refuse? They fall in line lest they too are attacked over this same taboo.

If you don't commit this war crime, you must not love Our country.

This MUST NOT be what my kids inherit. I won't let them be used in such a way.

The taboo MUST BE broken. If it is not, then we will have an illegal war every generation until every generation is constantly at war.

The ones depending on the taboo to hold are the ones responsible. They are making money off our blood.

We must stop them, and the best way to do it is break the code words they are using.

If you do post it, it may actually be helpful to post the relevent parts of this email exchange as well to further understand the nature of this discussion.

C

I may have told y'all this before, but at the risk of being redundant - ahem - I will tell it again.

In the early seventies, when my ex-brother-in- law came home from his tour of duty in Vietnam, where he was an "information specialist", one of the first things he did was travel to see his brother and me.

We were sitting in our living room visiting, and I said to the former "information specialist", "Just WHAT is this WHOLE VIETNAM War thing about, anyway?"

He said (with raised eyebrows) "You don't know, and you don't want to know."

OBAMA FULL SPEECH: Offers Policy Specifics, Goes on Offense v. McCain
Record 38 million viewers watched Obama's speech
You Tube
Saturday, August 30, 2008
Views: 139,196

Roo, wonder if that is 38 million viewers world wide? Or in U.S.?

"You don't know, and you don't want to know."

Hell yes I do want to know. It was done in my name. In the name of my country. It was done in all of our names.

I am sorry, but when exactly did we become children who can not handle THE TRUTH of things?

You know, like why they expect us to send our kids to DIE for them.

The answer is simple:

3 million Vietnamese people died, along with tens of thousands of Americans, just so that the elite of South Vietnam could set up shop in Southern California and start brainwashing the crap out of America.

It also gave South Korea a justification to mess with American democracy by sending Reverend Moon, because it could claim that its only other option would be to die like South Vietnam.

I don't have, nor need, any other answers.

And regarding Sarah Palin, she represents everything that's wrong about the reactionary primitive state of Alaska.

She has strong support of the Alaskan voters, and they truly believe in her backward social values.

My parents recently bought a place in Anchorage, and as they signed up for utilities, they were told that only legally married couples (which they of course are) could list their names together on their utility bills. This kind of BS will never fly in California.

Alaska should have NEVER been given statehood.

Christy,

He was and still is definately NOT SOMEONE who could tell what he knew.

That left me to still believe in Mamma's apple pie.

I didn't see the Wizard behind the curtain until four years ago. And anyone who remembers being in the chat room with me when it "clicked" remembers I was NOT a very happy camper.

Excellent Conversation Christy, because today we are living with all Georgie and his Administrations War Crimes. All based, not on fact, but based on lies.

Vietnam Veterans against MCCain
http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com/

Iraq

Number Of Iraqis Slaughtered In US War And Occupation Of Iraq "1,255,026"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of U.S. Military Personnel Sacrificed (Officially acknowledged) In U.S. War And Occupation Of Iraq 4,150

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cost of U.S. War and Occupation of Iraq

$549,806,567,171
For more details, click here.

Lie by Lie: The Mother Jones Iraq War Timeline (8/1/90 - 2/14/08)
In this timeline, we've assembled the history of the Iraq War to create a resource we hope will help resolve open questions of the Bush era. What did our leaders know and when did they know it? And, perhaps just as important, what red flags did we miss, and how could we have missed them? This is the third installment of the timeline, with a focus on Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo, and torture in a time of terror.
http://www.motherjones.com/bush_war_timeline/

If the truth were known about all the corruption in this world that has gone on, and remains, alot of people would freak out. I have had friends and relatives tell me "they DON'T want to know".

'Tis much easier to live in the land of Da Nile.

If you were to seek the truth and accept it, then you'd have to come off your heavenly cloud and stare evil in the face. Then you are responsible in some way to try to fix it. Then you must be responsible, and that means you have to quit living in your dream world of false Christianity, false righteousness, false patriotism (as long as it's someone else's kid...), false supremacy, materialism and greed.

Because those who know are accountable for what they know, and should be good stewards of the truth. That really does get in the way of "ME AND WHAT I WANT".

They might have to be unpopular, unbrainwashed, and un'happy'. They might want to ree-eee-vee- ohh-ell-tee.

Most people are too busy, too scared, or too selfish to care about the truth. It's the nature of the beast.

Roo, wonder if that is 38 million viewers world wide? Or in U.S.?

38 Million View Obama’s Speech; Highest-Rated Convention In History

http://tvdecoder.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/08/29/conventions-38-million-view-obamas-speech/

It does not include PBS or C-SPAN, which also carried the address live. PBS estimated that it averaged 3.5 million viewers between 8 and 11 p.m.

Ahhhhhhh I'm running late, Christy I am on my ways down to the Coast with Mum and My Sister till Wednesday get away from anything GOP, stay safe Christy Monkey everyone, I will be watching Gustav from the coast, they are declaring Gustav to be a Catagory 4 at the moment
Gustave upgraded to category 5
Officials: NOLA residents who fail to evacuate 'accept responsibility.'

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/08/30/national/main4400711.shtml

O.K. you have to bear with me, because I am still reeling with the news of Sarah Palin. You guys had an eight hour jump on me.

Then I'll move on, I promise. I may visit there once in a while, though....

I'll bet the sight of her next to an old, wrinkled, fallic symbol will make many red-necked men's trousers say YEE-HAW!

Roo,

Thanks for the info. That night, that scene at that stadium was one of the most beautiful sights I have ever seen.

TSP

You're not alone.

I know Alaska and its primitive reactionary politics too well. So any ticket with an Alaskan on it, even a Democratic one, is automatically disqualified in my books.

And an Alaskan running mate for an Arizonan? You can't possibly get any worse than that.

BBC is sucking up to Palin as well:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7589412.stm

Go to hell, Gordon Brown.

Hi Ally!

The only explanation I can think of is that these old farmers will identify with the old phallic (sorry 'bout the sp above) symbol, (even before he named Palin I thought he looked like an old, wrinkled, well.....phallic symbol.. I really did. Good thing his parents didn't name him Dick.) and the pretty young thing with cha-cha's will make them think they are getting something when they vote for the two of them. (Sorry whoever I stole that line from on the last thread). And yes, their trousers will indeed stand up and salute. You guys are ahead of me, but it's funny when I get it.

As far as them being worried that the inexperienced woman couldn't handle being Nbr. l, from my experience these men don't think any woman can handle anything, and they all think they are going to personally live (and love) forever, so............

It's a patriarchial society here and maybe in much of Rural America. The feminists are closet ones, and the Dems prefer to be closet Dems. There are hardly any if ever divorces in this town. My relative said when I moved here "They don't divorce, they just sleep with each other's spouses. It's a regular Peyton Place around here."

Word is that there is a club in this town where some married couples have "open marriages", and that anyone who knows the people who belong to that club would be "shocked", for they are the influential and affluent (for this area). One guy's brother caught him exploring his "open marriage" option on the floor of their co-owned business recently. The business has been sold and his wife has filed for divorce, as of last week.

So it's either the tough old warrior phallic symbol and the cha-cha's, or if they just plan to STEAL IT the electorate will be ready for a woman president WITH experience in 2012.

Ally, it's interesting to hear you talk about Eastern and Asian/American politics.

I knew one gal from Vietnam who's family was affluent in Vietnam. They risked all to come to America in a boat. Some of them did not survive the trip. This gal was drop-dead gorgeous, and was after every dime her business owner boyfriend in America had. Once she cleaned him out, she moved on to an old, rich doctor, and ended up marrying the doctor. Stupid they ain't.

Gustav slams Cuba as Cat 4 storm; many evacuated

HAVANA - Gustav howled into Cuba's Isla de Juventud as a monstrous Category 4 hurricane on Saturday while both Cubans and Americans scrambled to flee the path of the fast-growing storm.
ADVERTISEMENT

Forecasters said Gustav was just short of becoming a top-scale Category 5 hurricane as it powered its way toward mainland Cuba, where authorities were hurriedly evacuating more than 240,000 people from the nation's tobacco-rich western tip.

The hurricane was projected to plow into the oil-rich Gulf of Mexico at full force Sunday, and reach the U.S. coast as early as Monday afternoon. A hurricane watch was issued from Texas east to Florida, an area that includes New Orleans, which Hurricane Katrina devastated in 2005.

More than a million Americans took buses, trains, planes and cars as they streamed out of New Orleans and other coastal cities, where Katrina killed about 1,600 people.

Gustav already has killed 81 people by triggering floods and landslides in other Caribbean nations.

The storm knocked power out in many parts of Cuba's capital, Havana, as shrieking winds blasted sheets of rain sideways though the streets and whipped angry waves against the famed seaside Malecon boulevard. Felled tree branches and large chunks of muddy earth littered crowded roads.

The U.S. National Hurricane Center said Gustav had sustained winds of 150 mph (240 kph) — with higher gusts — as the heart of the storm began hitting Cuba's outlying island province of Isla de Juventud, where officials cut power to many areas. A Category 5 hurricane has winds above 155 mph (249 kph).

Gustav: Mother Nature's answer to McCain/Palin. Wipe Guantanamo off the map, and disrupt the convention - all in one weekend.

Hold onto your hats, gulf coast.

TSP

Word is that there is a club in this town where some married couples have "open marriages", and that anyone who knows the people who belong to that club would be "shocked", for they are the influential and affluent (for this area). One guy's brother caught him exploring his "open marriage" option on the floor of their co-owned business recently. The business has been sold and his wife has filed for divorce, as of last week.

Sexually repressive societies tend to have all sorts of perversions, because the people don't have legitimate, healthy ways to express their sexualities.

I'll be headed for such a society - South Korea - shortly. Word has it that peeping toms are a huge problem, so women's restrooms explicitly have signs warning men of a misdemeanor charge if they enter. Unfortunately, they'll probably pull that law out against the likes of me instead, since they consider me a "hyper-feminine gay man." (The concept of a trans lesbian is a strictly Western one.) Wife-swapping, just like the open marriages you mentioned, is also a common phenomenon as well.

Of course, this is the mentality that Reverend Moon wants to spread all over the rest of America.

Christy and sparrow, this is an excellent exchange and although I hoped that these questions would have been answered since time and wars began; they haven't ......... and they never will be. Every war begins on the premise that I'm (the warmonger) better than everyone else and so my opinions are more important and more right.

There have been, and still are, plenty of countries in the world where the citizens are treated far worse than they were in the Balkans or in Iraq or even in Afghanistan. Grief and horror for those people has gone on for many years longer and there is no end in sight.

So, there's the question, why did we need to kill 3 million Vietnamese? What did they have that we wanted? Well, the north Vietnamese had communism and we didn't want that! So that was the ploy used to frighten the wits out of everyone except young people. If we don't go and kill them there, they'll invade here.

My school friends and I said, "crap" at the time. And it's proven to be crap. And now? Christy, you won't get an answer because there is not an answer now except for the profits of war. It's always been about money and power and greed. You'll get these answers, 911; Saddam Hussein; 911; the Taliban; 911. Well, in the response to 911 more Americans have been killed than were killed that day.

And we're looking at the possibility of Palin being the president when McAlzheimers who doesn't know where he lives BEFORE he's elected, is locked up for his own safety. And here, we thought it couldn't get any worse.

Christy, you should publish these questions on the front page of every newspaper in the world. There would be a lot hang their heads in shame. But at the same time there'd be the defiant righteous blathering on about how RIGHT they are.

With regards to John Kerry. He was a young man and his president was telling him and his peers that communism was on the move. Russia had infiltrated many parts of Europe and would later come on down to Afghanistan. We know how terrified of Russia and communism, America was. Fear is an incredible force.

Young people lined up in droves to save their country. Their intentions were honourable. They didn't know. They trusted their government. Eventually - whilst engaged in Vietnam - John Kerry saw that he wasn't fighting the fight he was sent to fight. When he came home, he could have remained silent. Hundreds, thousands of others did. But no. He didn't.

He joined the Winter Soldiers. He spoke up to power. And he never stopped speaking up. To this day he is still speaking up. And out. And loudly. And it cost him. And it cost us. He had the guts to speak and it cost us the presidency. He still speaks up for truth. He still acknowledges the small gains. And I'm thankful that I will never have to sleep the fragmented horrors of his sleep.

No one knows better than John Kerry about governments that lie to their people.

Vietnam.

Iran Contra.

BCCI.

For a good long time, he did not hold back his criticism. He spoke--eloquently--about Vietnam. To Congress, no less.

I don't think he lost because of Vietnam, Christy. I think the soul-sucking moment was Iraq.

He went with the party and not his heart.

Now that the party did less than necessary to support HIM, he has been able to speak much more clearly. I was so glad to hear him talk about the need to criticize and make right the country when it is wrong, as he did the other night. That is the JK I know.

As for John McCain, I see him as a broken man. He is unsure and grasping right now. If he cannot find his footing, no amount of spin and glee over the pretty woman will get him to the Presidency. He's in trouble.

I was just stuck in Shreveport and the radio DJ says of Gustav 'It is as bad as it gets'.

They are turning I49 around at 4 am into all northbound.

Lining the interstate were National Guard troops headed south.

I think my kids school is shutting down til wendsday but that does not make any damn sense this far north unless they are taking all our buses.

Sounds bad Christy. Thinking of you and everyone affected by this damn weather. Stay safe.

"Christy, you won't get an answer "

But see Woz, I already know why that war was fought. The whole point here is to stop pretendeing no one knows why. We all know why, but no one will talk about it. It makes me angry when people expect me to pretend I am dumb. It makes me angry when they pretend to be dumb, all for some misguided sense of nationalistic pride.

Karen, as I stated, the same taboo that surrounds Vietnam is also now surrounding Iraq. Kerry lost, not because of this or that war, he lost because the taboo is so ingrained even he is afraid of touching against it.

He can not put Vietnam into proper context, and he can not put Iraq into proper context, because to do so would mean he 'don't support the troops' or 'hates our troops' and he 'wants them to lose'.

Kerry was terrified of appearing to 'not support the troops'. And it cost him dearly.

Had a great time today at Bumbershoot - Saw Lucinda Williams and some other good musicians, registered voters.

Came home and found the depressing news that Colleen Rowley and Colonel Anne Wright and other peace activists were "pre-emptively arrested" in Mpls/St. Paul - see Kayakbiker's story, videos, etc. He did a good job. One of the comments asks why the Mayors of both cities are doing nothing about this.

http://silencedmajority.blogs.com/silenced_majority_portal/2008/08/preemptive-arre.html?cid=128469664#comment-128469664

Then beginning to read about the hurricane in Louisiana, as I have not been near news all day.

Christy
Very very good letter - I agree with all of it. I have always noticed that it is not PC for any politician (except someone very brave like Dennis Kucinich, who is never elected higher than Congress, which is big enough to have a more progressive wing to be counterbalanced by the extreme right wing) to ever question the very idea of war itself.

Also, I have updated the front page with more information about arrests in the Twin Cities because I'm getting information steadily on it and wanted to get started. I don't think any of this will surprise Karen - that's for sure!

Well, I just thought this might make your day!

Some Evangelial Fundies are fasting and praying for the good of the nation right now. I heard mention of someone saying someone was "praying for rain to wipe out the Democratic convention when it was Obama's acceptance speech night at Mile High Stadium."

Good. I'm glad they are fasting and praying right now. Wonder if they will "get it" when Gustav floods people out of their homes again.
It should be a reminder of course of Katrina, and our inadequate protection at home under the present administration.

Looks like at least they are sending National Guard troops in THIS TIME. That's what they should have done the night the levy breached and the entire town drowned the next day.
"Great job Browny" may be trying to repair his image, but the fact is and always will be that his decisions about funding wars on half-truths have cost alot of lives, inside the U.S., and
in Iraq. What a legacy.

So this chick is going to go EVERYWHERE with McCain and his wife? Like Condi does with Bush and Laura? Now they are headed to the Gulf Coat to save the day.

I hear that the "Ronvoys" are headed to the Twin Cities. I learned from the LA Times that lots of no-shows are expected at Republican National Convention. Ten incumbent Senators and several Senate candidates are not coming. Only three in hotly contested races will come (including Mitch McConnell.) Arnold Schwarzenegger and Bobby Jindal are bowing out as well as Rick Perry of TX and they were supposed to give prime-time speeches. (They prayed for rain for Obama's speech and got Gustav instead.) Norm Coleman would rather be out campaigning. The Republicans are probably glad that Ted Stevens isn't coming, nor Larry Craig. Pat Roberts is too busy campaigning, and same with Sununu and Lizzie Dole. Hagel is going to Europe instead and has praised Biden and so did Lugar, who isn't going either. Neither is Hagel's opponent who is running for his seat, nor is Allard (CO) who is retiring nor the (R) who is campaigning for his seat. "Over my cold dead political carcass," he told reporters.

Meanwhile, Obama's speech got 38 million viewers, more than the Olympics Opening Night or the Academy Awards or any night of American Idol.

Love the picture slugbug. To have been there for Obama's speech must have been electric!! It was all very powerful.

Christy, of course you know why the Vietnam war was fought. For nothing. Same as the Iraq war. For nothing. Well, it's debatable. For oil maybe.

Your questions are so important I'd like to see them as compulsory prerequisites for going into war. Oh, that's right - there were Weapons of Mass Destruction - last time. So, questions answered and the reasons proved without a shadow of doubt.

After invading Iraq, and long after the inspectors had asked for more time, no WMD were found. So what did GWB ask for - more time! People had been killed by this time. More time? For his finders to find the WMDs? Then why not more time for the inspectors who do this work all the time?

I don't understand why opposition parties refuse to answer or talk about such issues.

Not 'for nothing' Woz. We fought it for something even worse than 'nothing'.

We fought it so war mongering liars could make a profit off of our own flesh and blood. We all know it, we all live with it, but rarely do we ever talk about it. Almost never is it spoken aloud.

And it is not just the 'opposition' parties that do not talk about it in this country, it is EVERYONE. The taboo is so strong even those who are trying to stop the wars will not touch it. We have been trained to attack anyone who dares to 'not support the troops' so the 'opposition' just melts away..

I think Slugbug is right, the whole taboo is about making us never question war. We man-up, put on our boots and go kick someones ass without ever stopping to ask 'Why are we doing this? What do we gain?'

I really believe this taboo is as deliberate as any propaganda campaign ever was. These war criminals in charge over here know we better not ever question it, because if we do, then they will rot in prison waiting for the hangman.

It is a deliberate scheme to wipe out any opposition. They know those actually doing the deed will be too ashamed and guilty over their own involvement to ever openly speak of how they were used. How dare you accuse me, the president, when the blood was literally on YOUR hands...?

Since the taboo was never broken, we are now in Iraq, and if it remains unbroken we will wind up in 100 other little countries killing people for no identifiable reason. Except to make war criminals rich beyond their wildest murderous dreams.

That is why Vietnam is still so important. It signaled a new era of a new kind of 'war'. The cause is unimportant, what is important is making sure it goes on and on and on, and everyone is kept as ignorant as possible. It is a fractured way to fight and it does not matter if we 'lose' because no one will take the blame.

The whole point is war, for the profit of war criminals.

And as long as the taboo holds every one of those bastards responsible will get away with it because no one will dare question it.

To me, this taboo goes to the very heart of why we do not question war, why we are willing to kill innocents, and why we allow ourselves to be ruled by war criminals.

If this taboo is not broken now in our time, then our kids our grandkids our great-grandkids will all be left in a world where they are sent to die for nothing more than the profits of the war criminals that rule over them.

NPR reporting Bush won't attend convention, due to Gustav.

It's all falling apart for them.

August 31, 2008 9:05 AM
Carol said:
NPR reporting Bush won't attend convention, due to Gustav.

It's all falling apart for them.

Could it be that someone is going to rain on THEIR parade?

I'm wondering if John McCain even had a choice as to who to put in the V.P. slot. (Besides Lieberman of course.) Maybe the rest turned it down.

Slugbug: You come up with the cutest things!

(What do you do when you are not working, attending political functions, campaigning, canvassing, and writing headers for blogs?
Go to a music festival all day?)

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