Power Never Concedes, but Hatred MUST.

continued discussion from last thread

Christy
I don't think you could say anything that would get deleted here... unless you start waving around a gun or something ;0

I'm angry too. I want to be sure first-- the reports come from unnamed 'advisers'. We need verification. It's hard to imagine that the Obama admin would make decisons before seeing evidence or before Bush does his pardons.

This article (below), also based on unnamed advisers, describes a plan for an investigative commission which is far more extensive than reported in yesterday's AP story.

It's maddening because of legal complexities that should not exist. Also Bush & his admin did extensive ass-covering to make it even harder for legal actions to stand up in court. On top of legalities is the fact that the economic crisis will consume most of Obama's time & energy for the indefinite future. The cynical side of me wonders if Bush fueled this crisis as a smokescreen so he can slink out without being held accountable for his crimes.

Obama's plans for probing Bush torture

The plan would not rule out future prosecutions, but would delay a decision on that matter until all essential facts can be unearthed. Between the time necessary for the investigative process and the daunting array of policy problems Obama will face upon taking office, any decision on prosecutions probably would not come until a second Obama presidential term, should there be one.

snip

The proposed commission... would examine a broad scope of activities, including detention, torture and extraordinary rendition, the practice of snatching suspected terrorists off the street and whisking them off to a third country for abusive interrogations.

snip

A common view among those involved with the talks is that any early effort to prosecute Bush administration officials would likely devolve quickly into ugly and fruitless partisan warfare.

snip

In Obama's camp, there is a sense among some that such a commission would essentially mean letting Bush get away with crimes. "People have called for criminal investigations," one person familiar with the talks told me this summer as plans got under way.

snip

But few think prosecutions are realistic, given the formidable legal hurdles and the huge policy problems competing for Obama's attention. Among them is the complicated task of closing down the military prison at Guantánamo Bay, which Obama advisors say is a priority.

According to this article, legal action against BushCo may come from non-governmental groups intent of justice:

Rick Holmes: Presidents and pardons

...Crimes have been committed in the last eight years in our name: kidnapping, torture, murder, illegal wiretaps, offenses against civil law and the Constitution. These aren't topics Obama wanted to address on the campaign trail. He wanted his message to be about hope for the future, not transgressions in the past.

But serious people, including lawyers and constitutional scholars, are determined to see that justice is done. About 120 of them met in September in Andover to plan "the prosecution of high-level American war criminals." The conference produced a steering committee, chaired by Lawrence Velvel, dean of the Massachusetts School of Law, along with a list of 20 possible actions the group will pursue, from impeaching a federal judge who authored one of the infamous "torture memos" to seeking the disbarment of attorneys who authorized illegal actions.

The author also goes beyond the usual in discussion pardon strategies.

aimzzz

I fully agree, especially with the conservative ideology, that it's the PEOPLE, not the government, who get things done. It's the people who will demand punishing the W regime. Obama will simply be following the orders of those who voted for him, if he actually pushes anything.

I feel this very strongly sitting in South Korea. The inter-Korean tensions (it's not possible to phone, mail, or make any other contact between the two Koreas, and it's been that way since the 1940s) are all the fault of the two governments, which are more interested in prolonging their grip on power than in serving the needs of the Korean people. It's the people of the two Koreas who will bring the two halves closer together - and the governments are just too afraid to give up their control of their respective halves.

I'll say this again and again. The people get things done. The government either obeys the people's orders, or it will eventually be overthrown, sooner or later.

I'm departing Gyeongju now. It's 7 in the morning, and I have a long drive back to Seoul ahead. While the drive is normally only 4 hours, I am trying to stop at three different Buddhist temples on the way, so it should take all day.

I'm very inspired by all the Buddhist and other cultural relics that I've seen on the road. This will be one road trip to remember for a long time.

May the spirit and mercy of Kwan Yin be with all of us, always.

I second that Ally! I was just showing a woman from India my Kwan Yin blessed gold necklace today. She was showing me a huge Buddha in Sri Lanka - alot of where it is Hindu used to be Buddhist and there is still much respect.

"Christy
I don't think you could say anything that would get deleted here"

Except, well, you know the times my posts WERE censored or erased on this blog. I admit I may have deserved it. Like once.

But the hillarious thing is, none of those censored ever DIRECTLY said 'F*ck you'. Now I think if I had just come out and said it, instead of inventing clever ways to say it without saying it, I probably would not have been censored.

Safe journey Ally!

A case of you

(apropos of nothing)

For Barack Obama: Both Sides Now

Both Sides Now

Gaaaack... the song, not that video they put with it >p

Paul Simon: Diamonds on the soles of her shoes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OafqYNCzq5U

Peter Gabriel: Biko
1986 Amnesty International Tour

I can't hear this song without crying

You can blow out a candle
But you can't blow out a fire
Once the flames begin to catch
The wind will blow it higher...

What does this mean .. about Cheney?

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/11/18/cheney.gonzales.indicted/

Christy

A kos diary
Pig Iron, PM-2.5 and Mercury Under Bobby Jindahl

slugbug
Someone local may be able to explain... Is there a Texan in the house?

One the Cheney/Gonzales thing, this is what the Houston Chronicle says:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/6119459.html

Keep in mind, as the story says, that this is taking place "in a county that has been a source of bizarre legal and political battles in recent years...." I wish Ira was here to opine on this, as I am a translplanted Texan and not a lawyer. But my guess it that this is not going anywhere.

I am also invested in Vangaurd for that matter (low administrative fees was the attraction).

Chuck in Houston (Texas)

Well you may go to college
You may go to school
You may have a pink Cadillac
But don't you be nobody's fool:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QI97stLQLdw&feature=related

The Cheney/Gonzales indictments sound like hot air to me. Just a beat up by someone who wants to make himself famous. I wish they were indicted - with a few hundred others. I fear they will all walk free, smiling and RICH.

What we did to Elvis:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjWnkmfldB0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qu5wnUlMEnM&NR=1

Karen, I have sent Christopher's letter about the assault on Jack to my friend who has friends with a gay son. She was so rapt in Keith Olbermanns piece about LOVE that she sent that to them.

To Christopher and Jack, my gay friend was brutally bashed one night and it broke his heart. At the time he couldn't believe that he could possibly bring about that level of hate. And now he knows that he couldn't. That level of hate was in his attackers long before he came along. That level of hate will stay in them until they find themselves isolated. The haters are shrinking. I believe that the haters are vocal. Very Loud. But I also believe that they are running out of voices. Soon they will be voiceless.

It won't be long.

Woz:

I tend to agree that these indictments are going nowhere. Whatever Cheney may have done, I can't see that the proper jurisdiction is Willacy County or even Webb County. More to the point, I don't see any indictments going anywhere in this regard. After all, nobody went to jail for the internment of "Japanese" Americans during WWII and Jeff Davis wasn't hung, etc.

Chuck in Houston

On topic, assault and battery is a crime in any US jurisdiction I know of, regardless of the motivations of the attacker.

Greetings again from Seoul. My road trip is over, and I am back in Seoul - though only after twelve hours on the road, visiting three Buddhist temples and enduring hours and miles of subzero (subzero Celsius, anyway, but that's still very cold) temperatures.

I would like to let you know that the Lee Myung-bak government here is doing everything to copy the failed W agenda to the letter. It is once again illegal to be left-leaning, as you are immediately and automatically labeled a threat to national security, subject to summary imprisonment and even execution. The last time this was the case, it was 20 years ago under a military dictator.

Moreover, Lee is about to re-create the infamous KCIA, the state secret police that eavesdropped on political opponents/dissidents and even their corporate sponsors. He wants to "reform" intelligence laws to dramatically expand the intelligence limits of the government, because, as he says, a well-informed government is a more responsive government. Just a few weeks ago, he was extolling the virtues of small neoliberal government (the very same thing that Reagan and W tried and failed at), and now this?

The people are fed up, however. The Buddhist temples are utterly fed up at Lee's crackdown of non-Christians. The labor unions are just as fed up, and Seoul Metro, one of Seoul's two city-owned subway operators, will have a strike tomorrow (though it shouldn't impact my mobility much at all) over the management's plans to privatize much of the company to sweetheart contractors. The million-plus unionized government employees will have a huge anti-Lee rally in Seoul this weekend. And while all this goes on, the economy continues to tank.

Of course, the pro-government propaganda organs are fighting back with their own crap. Chosun Ilbo quoted Forbes to indicate that it's the UAW's fault that American cars are not selling in South Korea, though in reality, it's the marketers' inability to offer cars that the global market wants to drive (even when the engineers are able and willing to design such cars).

One more thing...

It's the KCIA that masterminded the Moonies' entry into US society and politics. All the more reason why America must be concerned about the rise of a new police state in South Korea.

And with South Korea's advanced IT technology, the police state will be more effective and more Big Brother than anything else the world has ever seen. Already, in order to create accounts at South Korean Internet portals and elsewhere, I am required to submit a National ID or an Alien Registration ID number. The 13-digit number is easily decoded, immediately giving away my date of birth, gender, and the bureaucratic office where I first got registered (either by birth or by alien registration).

This is real scary stuff. Is Obama willing to crack down hard on behalf of democracy in the US, in South Korea, and throughout the world? Or will he cower before the Moonies because they are too powerful to be messed with already? I repeat - Obama must kick Lee Myung-bak's ass. HARD.

And even one more thing:

If Hyundai Motor Company management listens to the reactionary fascist propaganda from the likes of Chosun Ilbo, decides that it was the UAW that brought down the American automakers, and goes ahead and starts messing with its own workforce, then my plans to replace my Nazi POS BMW with a Hyundai Genesis will be completely off.

All indications are that this is not happening, however. My plan is still on.

I'm never buying any more Samsung crap, however, as Samsung is not only listening to the fascists, it's Samsung's own think tanks that are coming up with the propaganda.

Yall better wait to dismiss those indictments AFTER you find out why they were issued in the first place.

A Grand Jury indicted them, and we do not know why. They had evidence not yet in the public domain to consider. And what they did consider seemed good enough to indict a sitting US VP on. And torture boy too!

It would be even better if those who admitted to being personally invested in the same company would refrain from dismissing a grand jury indictment before the evidence has been presented of why it was issued.

Just imagine if it is TRUE and the company is engaged in 'organized criminal' acts... Bet those low administrative fees would no longer look like such a good deal.

BTW, funny thing about those indictments.

They just so happen to relate to the mistreatment and abuse of detainees.

Something that cheney and torture boy are ALREADY known for taking particular glee in.

Ofcourse they are best known for doing it to non Americans, but they had to learn to like it somewhere.

Oh and Aimzzzz...

"A common view among those involved with the talks is that any early effort to prosecute Bush administration officials would likely devolve quickly into ugly and fruitless partisan warfare."

Considering it was republicans whom for 8 years have been subverting the entire government into a perpetual republican election machine, complete with built in power to mow down anyone in its path....

I say IT IS ALREADY PARTISIAN WARFARE.

BRING IT ON! BRING IT ON! BRING IT ON!

And then there is this...

"But few think prosecutions are realistic, given the formidable legal hurdles and the huge policy problems competing for Obama's attention. Among them is the complicated task of closing down the military prison at Guantánamo Bay, which Obama advisors say is a priority."

Funny how every time we start talking serious prosecutions of the crimes committed all the sudden those expected to carry out the prosecutions of people they are personally linked too, just can not find the time to do it. Or they tell us how complicated it is, or how meaningless punishing criminals are.

Seee, Obama is going to be SOOOO BUSY shutting down Gitmo, he just does not have the time to prosecute the crimes committed in THAT EXACT LOCATION.

OF COURSE HE DON'T!

My gawd, I had forgotten how stupid it was of all of us to expect our leaders to walk and chew bubble gum at the same time.

EVERY EXCUSE THEY ARE GIVING IS EXACTLY THAT... A FREAKING EXCUSE. LAME EXCUSES AT THAT.

No.

More.

Excuses.

This one bothers me the most..

"But few think prosecutions are realistic, given the formidable legal hurdles and the huge policy problems competing for Obama's attention. Among them is the complicated task of closing down the military prison at Guantánamo Bay, which Obama advisors say is a priority."

Let's put it in more simple terms. Shall we?

So... one day, we all walk into a house where a murder; a bloody, violent, vicious, and obvious murder... has just taken place. All the nieghbors heard the screams, and the silencing of them.

The stench of death greets us at the door.

So we walk in, and there is the blood, the body, and the killer sitting there licking the blood off the blade.

And we all look at each other and say 'MY GOD! The MOST IMPORTANT THING we need to do now is get that body buried and clean up all the blood!'

"Then,... we can burn down the house so this never ever happens again!"

President-elect Obama promises “new chapter” on climate change

A New Chapter on Climate Change

Getting rid of bodies are how political favors are generated in DC.

There is an Underground railway system connecting Senate and House with other buildings. This system was built so Legislators would not need to endure rotten vegetables and fruits tossed at them when the public was enraged with their actions.
This is what Americans Used to do, toss rotten food at legislators when they passed corrupt legislation. It became so bad they were forced to build an underground rail system to avoid the enraged public.

Today we just shrug our shoulders and accept the situation. It's a good idea to go back to being enraged.

toolmaker,

The entrances to the subways are public spaces and I have had many conversations with legislators at the junctures. Sometimes they go outside to avoid such encounters...

Random thought on (so called) free market:

With market crash, just think of the bailout needed if Bush/Repugs had rammed through the privatization of Social Security

Most Americans Back Idea of Clinton as Secretary of State

A new Gallup Poll finds a majority of Americans (57%) in favor of Barack Obama appointing Hillary Clinton as the secretary of state in his administration. Thirty percent oppose it.

Beau Biden will not accept Senate appointment

Delaware Attorney General Beau Biden says he plans to fulfill his National Guard duties and won't accept an appointment to his father's U.S. Senate seat.

The younger Biden has released a statement as his unit prepares to deploy to Iraq. Beau Biden says he hasn't sought and wouldn't accept an appointment to the Senate, and that he looks forward to returning to his job as attorney general after his service tour.

Obama's Use of Complete Sentences Stirs Controversy

In the first two weeks since the election, President-elect Barack Obama has broken with a tradition established over the past eight years through his controversial use of complete sentences, political observers say...

WOW! Bill Clinton campaigning for Jim Martin in GA... Best Bill I've seen in years. Did a riff on Chambliss slogan : the Firewall.
Presenting Martin as the Bridge
Do you want the Bridge or the Firewall.
Telling tales on Max Cleland & then choked up about Chambliss' campaign tactics-righteous anger...

OK, I'm gonna phonebank. Early voting already started. If interested, go to BarackObama.com , select Action, click: I want to help on my own. Then click: Make calls from home with our online tool.

Christy:

In all seriousness, Vanguard is a huge mutual fund family, like Fidelity, and probably half of America is, like me (and Cheney, apparently), some how invested in it one way or another (or a family member is). My Vanguard fund is basically indexed to the S&P 500. Being the financial wizard that I am, I bought into it at the peak of its value (in the year 2000).

On a side note, if Cheney has actually been indicted, what happens next? Does he get arrested? Or does he have to be impeached first? What about Gonzales? I guess he is no longer an officer of the federal government so he would be arrested like any other citizen. I think I read somewhere that the indictment didn't get signed by the judge that has jurisdiction in this case so in any event I would suppose that no further action has been triggered yet. Interesting story!

Chuck in Houston

Latest on the Cheney indictment from the Houston Chronicle:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/hotstories/6121728.html

Chuck in Houston

Hmmm - not sounding too good for the missing prosecutor in the indictments. I get so sick of reading the print media. Several thousand words of utter b.s. going around and around and around the same tired old words. The indictments are sound apparently. However, the indicted have been such wonderful people who work for the people that they have earned a comfy ride to prosecution or whatever. I'd rather read nothing at all, than read this.

I wouldn't believe any press report that claimed to be privy to the certainty that GWBush had been impeached. Not until there was actual evidence and celebration of such an occurrence.

With the indictments. I'll pay attention when we have a view of any one of them handcuffed and shackled in court or being led to a van in preparation for uncomfortable transport to their new residence. Especially if it's Cheney. What a pleasure that sight would be. I'm pessimistic on this one though.

Biggest waste of money and resources - especially trees - is the print media. Pathetic.

Woz:

I thought that was a decent article -- lots of who and when and where and what, though I still don't get what the charges exactly are, though, especially on Cheney (the connection through a huge investment house seems thinner than thin). I guess in the Gonzales case it was a charge of directly obstructing an investigation.

In a larger sense, the print media and the network news stations are the main source, I think, of investigative reporting. What other media have paid staff to run out to places like Webb County and check on this sort of stuff?

Chuck in Houston

PS: On the other hand, you have to hand it to the Chron when their leading story is about a high school cheerleading hazing scandal! (Number two is pretty interesting too.)

Giving Up on God

By Kathleen Parker

Tuesday, November 18, 2008; 6:37 PM

As Republicans sort out the reasons for their defeat, they likely will overlook
or dismiss the gorilla in the pulpit.

Three little letters, great big problem: G-O-D.

I'm bathing in holy water as I type.

To be more specific, the evangelical, right-wing, oogedy-boogedy branch of the
GOP is what ails the erstwhile conservative party and will continue to afflict
and marginalize its constituents if reckoning doesn't soon cometh.

Simply put: Armband religion is killing the Republican Party. And, the truth --
as long as we're setting ourselves free -- is that if one were to eavesdrop
on private conversations among the party intelligentsia, one would hear
precisely that.

The choir has become absurdly off-key, and many Republicans know it.

But they need those votes!

So it has been for the Grand Old Party since the 1980s or so, as it has become
increasingly beholden to an element that used to be relegated to wooden crates
on street corners.

Short break as writer ties blindfold and smokes her last cigarette.

Which is to say, the GOP has surrendered its high ground to its lowest brows.
In the process, the party has alienated its non-base constituents, including
other people of faith (those who prefer a more private approach to worship), as
well as secularists and conservative-leaning Democrats who otherwise might be
tempted to cross the aisle.

Here's the deal, 'pubbies: Howard Dean was right.

It isn't that culture doesn't matter. It does. But preaching to the
choir produces no converts. And shifting demographics suggest that the
Republican Party -- and conservatism with it -- eventually will die out unless
religion is returned to the privacy of one's heart where it belongs.

Religious conservatives become defensive at any suggestion that they've had
something to do with the GOP's erosion. And, though the recent Democratic
sweep can be attributed in large part to a referendum on Bush and the failing
economy, three long-term trends identified by Emory University's Alan
Abramowitz have been devastating to the Republican Party: increasing racial
diversity, declining marriage rates and changes in religious beliefs.

Suffice it to say, the Republican Party is largely comprised of white, married
Christians. Anyone watching the two conventions last summer can't have
missed the stark differences: One party was brimming with energy, youth and
diversity; the other felt like an annual Depends sales meeting.

With the exception of Miss Alaska, of course.

Even Sarah Palin has blamed Bush policies for the GOP loss. She's not
entirely wrong, but she's also part of the problem. Her recent conjecture
about whether to run for president in 2012 (does anyone really doubt she will?)
speaks for itself:

"I'm like, okay, God, if there is an open door for me somewhere, this
is what I always pray, I'm like, don't let me miss the open door. Show
me where the open door is.... And if there is an open door in (20)12 or four
years later, and if it's something that is going to be good for my family,
for my state, for my nation, an opportunity for me, then I'll plow through
that door."

Let's do pray that God shows Alaska's governor the door.

Meanwhile, it isn't necessary to evict the Creator from the public square,
surrender Judeo-Christian values or diminish the value of faith in America.
Belief in something greater than oneself has much to recommend it, including
most of the world's architectural treasures, our universities and even our
founding documents.

But, like it or not, we are a diverse nation, no longer predominantly white and
Christian. The change Barack Obama promised has already occurred, which is why
he won.

Among Jewish voters, 78 percent went for Obama. Sixty-six percent of under-30
voters did likewise. Forty-five percent of voters ages 18-29 are Democrats
compared to just 26 percent Republican; in 2000, party affiliation was split
almost evenly.

The young will get older, of course. Most eventually will marry, and some will
become their parents. But nonwhites won't get whiter. And the nonreligious
won't get religion through external conversion. It doesn't work that
way.

Given those facts, the future of the GOP looks dim and dimmer if it stays the
present course. Either the Republican Party needs a new base -- or the nation
may need a new party.

Kathleen Parker's e-mail address is kparker@kparker.com.

I Loved the line: "...the GOP has surrendered its high ground to its lowest brows." !!
Em

That's a good line. The one that hit me was " . . . preaching to the choir produces no converts."

I truly believe that the GOP thought Caribou Barbie could produce the female votes and the middle would just come on in: NOT on both. Palin was Pathetic and the middle knew better but the GOP never counted on Americans turning off Faux News and thinking for themselves. Screw Joe the Plumber - not really a plumber and not even named Joe. And does not even make $60k/year and is behind on his taxes. So how is this f-ing loser ever going to buy a plumbing business? Not in his wildest dreams. "Joe the Loser" would have been more appropriate. Just like Grampy McSame and Caribou Barbie - losers all around.

Just my HO.

abq

Karen

Silence = death

Also, Huckabee is NOT helpful
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/11/19/134019/27/467/663628

I so doubt 'half of America' is invested in the Vanguard group.

"I think I read somewhere that the indictment didn't get signed by the judge that has jurisdiction in this case so in any event I would suppose that no further action has been triggered yet."

And yet the story broke that they were signed, even as you said it. That whole jumping the gun thing and all was kinda the whole point.

By the way, 'thinner than thin'... is a phrase I personally would have waited to say until AFTER finding out exactly what he was being indicted for. And what evidence they have to back it up.

Obviously whatever IT is... was good enough for the Grand Jury and judge to move forward with.

"One indictment charges Cheney and Gonzales with engaging in organized criminal activity."

No doubt if I were an investor, I would be seriously worried right now. Thankfully, I have no such conflict of interest, nor do most people who are interested in actually seeing what the evidence is BEFORE dismissing it.

Huh?

No habla inglese?

Christy:

Vanguard is huge. It is one of the main 401K funds, like Fidelity. Huge amounts of people, like me, have holdings in it. Since you are following this so close, what exactly is Cheney charged with and what judge signed what paperwork?

Chuck in Houston

Here's the story I read (again):

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/hotstories/6121865.html

Chuck in Houston

Wikipedia on Vanguard:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Vanguard_Group

In case you missed it, Vanguard manages about $1.3 trillion in assets. As I said, I picked a fund that shadows the S&P 500 (I think). So here are the top five holdings it includes:

Exxon Mobil
GE
Proctor and Gamble
Walmart
Bank of America

http://quicktake.morningstar.com/FundNet/Snapshot.aspx?Country=USA&topnav2=hetopquote&Symbol=VGIAX&referid=sp015&gclid=CJiTtIaJg5cCFQVxFQodAT5pXw

It has also lost about 40-50% of its value in the last few weeks. But, then again, what hasn't? Me, for one, I'm glad I still have twenty or so years of work left in me. Otherwise I would be worried.

God willing, that is (knock wood, etc.)

It was you dismissing the charges as thinner than thin even though you obviously have no idea what the charges actually are.

"I think I read somewhere that the indictment didn't get signed by the judge that has jurisdiction in this case so in any event I would suppose that no further action has been triggered yet."

"what judge signed what paperwork?"

Oh, that is right, no one can see you when you have your eyes closed. Either way...The arraignment for dick and torture boy is set for friday.

"I tend to agree that these indictments are going nowhere." Oooops.

Before finding out where they are going to, and dismissing the charges, you should have waited to see where they come FROM instead.

Christy:

OK, I maybe wrong. I guess we'll know by next week or so. I'm just thinking that as Dick Cheney has been in Washington D.C. and not Willacy County for these last several decades this charge will probably not stick. But, as I said, I could be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time.

Chuck in Houston

Did you not read that the Vanguard group had a nexus of detention facilities in Willacy County?

Oh, and since they are state charges, Presidential Pardons do not apply.

"...this charge will probably not stick."

See! There you go again.

You admit you have no idea what the charge is, or even why it came out of that county... And yet that is still not enough to keep you from saying how it just won't stick. Thinner than thin. Amounts to nothing.

Kinda sad, really.

Yep, Christy, kinda sad. What is the charge again?

By the way, Vanguard does not have a nexus of facilities. Again, it is a mutual fund family (I think that is the right term).

Christy:

Again, this will all be a moot point soon, but, just out of curiousity, where did you get the bit about "the Vanguard group had a nexus of detention facilities in Willacy County"?

Chuck in Houston

I don't know what the charges are, I will actually wait until the indictments are made public BEFORE deciding how 'thin' the case is.

But I can tell you what it relates too. From your own link.

"The highest-profile indictment charges Cheney and Gonzales with engaging in organized criminal activity. It alleges that the men neglected federal prisoners and are responsible for assaults in the facilities.

The grand jury traced a sketchy line between Cheney's influence over the U.S. Immigrations and Customs Enforcement agency, which oversees the county's federal immigrant detention center, and his substantial holdings in the Vanguard Group, which invests in private prison companies.

Combining those interests, the grand jury accused Cheney of a conflict of interest because the more the prison companies were paid to hold inmates, the better he did financially.

"It is appalling to find that numerous elected officials from different levels of our government throughout our country to our U.S. Vice President Richard B. Cheney, defendant, are profiting from depriving human beings of their liberty," the indictment said.

The indictment accuses Gonzales of stopping an investigation into abuses at the federal detention center."

At THE Federal Detention facility.... Which facility? Why, one in Willacy County apparently.

And, Yes, they do have a nexus of detention facilities in Willacy.

"..substantial holdings in the Vanguard Group, which invests in private prison companies."

Perhaps you should have been told that when you invested in them.

"... where did you get the bit about "the Vanguard group had a nexus of detention facilities in Willacy County"?

Why... I read it in the Houston Chronicle.

"Cheney's indictment on a charge of engaging in an organized criminal activity criticizes the vice president's investment in the Vanguard Group, which holds interests in the private prison companies running the federal detention centers."

"Willacy County has become a prison hub with county, state and federal lockups."

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/6119459.html

BTW....

I will make a disclosure of my own. A very close member of my family is a prison guard. In Texas.

Christy:

Nothing you just posted says that Vanguard has any detention facilities anywhere. As I said, Vanguard has $1.3 trillion in investments, again, as a mutual fund family. No doubt it is quite possible that they own some shares in some company that does prisons (the GEO Group to be precise). As I said, that is what makes this "charge" so thin as to seem, on the surface (again, I may be wrong), ridiculous.

You did have the key part of the Chronicle article in your post though: "The grand jury traced a sketchy line between Cheney's influence over the U.S. Immigrations and Customs Enforcement agency, which oversees the county's federal immigrant detention center, and his substantial holdings in the Vanguard Group, which invests in private prison companies."

That is precisely the bit that led me to believe that this indictment is thin, thin, thin. Again, I could be wrong, and I think there is no further need to beat a dead horse. We'll see in a week or so.

Chuck in Houston

PS: If this GEO Group is in the S&P500, I probably do own a piece. But I doubt it.

GEO Group:

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=91331&p=irol-irhome

Last month, a Willacy County grand jury indicted The GEO Group, a Florida private prison company, on a murder charge in the death of a prisoner days before his release. The three-count indictment alleged The GEO Group allowed other inmates to beat Gregorio de la Rosa Jr. to death with padlocks stuffed into socks. The death happened in 2001 at the Raymondville facility, just four days before de la Rosa's scheduled release.

In 2006, a jury ordered the company to pay de la Rosa's family $47.5 million in a civil judgment. The Cheney-Gonzalez indictment makes reference to the de la Rosa case.

Christy, also, for our mutual peace of mind, I just checked the list of the 123 holdings in my Vanguard fund and it does not include GEO.

Gregorio de la Rosa Jr.

It is always interesting when an indictment actually contains named dead people.

Well, GEO obviously has potential liabilities in its line of work. How that puts Cheney in jail is a mystery to me. Anyway, I've got to turn in. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. Good night all and all the best!

Chuck in Houston

PS: I still have to post something in the musical line before I turn in....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64_303eHaTM

"Christy, also, for our mutual peace of mind, I just checked the list of the 123 holdings in my Vanguard fund and it does not include GEO."

For one, you better keep checking. I doubt they would just announce it on any google search.

And for two... Our MUTUAL peace of mind is not at issue. I am not personally invested in keeping my fellow countrymen in perpetual and mass imprisonment for profit.

And for 3. Disclosure # 2. When I was born, my father was a prison guard at Oklahoma State, I was born in a prison town.

I always did wonder when the Land of the Free would start asking why we have more prisoners than all other nations combined, in lockup.

The crap did not happen by accident.

And the answer is Money Money Money.

Yeah, me too, I would call it a 'Family of Mutual Funds'. Sounds so friendly and legit, doesn't it? If you called it what it really was then no one would invest in it.

Except evil people. Then they would invest like 85 million. Just like cheney did.

"Nothing you just posted says that Vanguard has any detention facilities anywhere."

Quit being willfully blind. It is boring. And deceptive.

BOTH of thouse Houst. Chron. links had the same thing in them, YOUR OWN LINK said it.

"and his substantial holdings in the Vanguard Group, which invests in private prison companies."

And from MY link.

"Cheney's indictment on a charge of engaging in an organized criminal activity criticizes the vice president's investment in the Vanguard Group, which holds interests in the private prison companies running the federal detention centers."

Christy:

No, I didn't google it. For grins, I logged on to my Vanguard account and, FYI, of the 123 holdings in it, there is no GEO. Also, even if there was, under any construction of corporate law I doubt you can prosecute a shareholder in some publically traded enterprise for some illegal act that enterprise may have committed. So, I may be boring, but I am not being deceptive. I am also not blind. I read every article I post before I post it. You are conflating a number of issues that have nothing at all to do with whether or not there is a case against Cheney and Gonzales. As I said, time will tell.

Chuck in Houston

" I doubt you can prosecute a shareholder in some publically traded enterprise for some illegal act that enterprise may have committed. "

cheney was not just any shareholder, he had the power to create a prison industrial complex. With the full backing of the US Government. Gonzalez was covering up whatever it was cheney was doing.

Cheney CONTROLS the conditions of his investments.

And they may not SAY GEO as one of your investments but they are using shell companies, fronts, to move the money around. Always have, always will. Look deeper.

You were being deceptive to say I had not posted anything showing Vanguard was investing in privitized prisons. You yourself had posted a link to confirm it.

And I am glad to know you actually did read the article before linking up, because I was starting to believe either you had not read it, or if you had, you could not understand what you were reading.

To make it more clear, I would not dispute that the Vanguard Group -- again a $1.3 trillion family of mutual funds (I think that is the correct name for this thing, at least my wife thinks so,m if not we stand corrected) -- may have somewhere an interest in this GEO outfit. Insofar as I understand these things, I cannot see how a county in a state in the US can prosecute shareholders at several removes for the actions of an entity in that county. Again, I could be completely wrong and I would think that we ought to table this discussion for a couple weeks and see what happens. I can eat crow if there is enough Tabasco sauce on it.

Chuck in Houston

Christy:

I never, I hope, claimed that Vanguard doesn't invest in such companies. At issue is control: I maintain that Vanguard is not, and never has been, and never will be, in the business of running prisons, anymore than they are in the business of producing oil and gas: ExxonMobil is the number one position in my particular portfolio. Institutional investors in Exxon are not liable, in a legal sense, for such things as Exxon tankers, for example, crashing. Their only liability in that sense is that if an Exxon tanker crashes, then the stock may go down, etc.

If we were to void these legal considerations, then there would be no investment in anything whatsoever (except where you have a local mafia running the whole deal).

LOL
Karl Rove Advises Obama On DOJ Politicization

Timeout for smiles:

BREAKING: Tensions Erupt Over White House Puppy Appointment

The Bill tells Georgia:  It's the bridge against the firewall

Bill Clinton is campaigning for Jim Martin in GA. In case you aren't fired up about this race, just take a listen:

I caught part of this speech last night on CNN. Bill is truely in his element here. Some highlights:

(short refresher on Filibuster)

(NOTE: not exact quotations... a mix of paraphrase & quote)
Bill Clinton talked about the inability to pass legislation in his first term. Not having a 2/3 majority in the Senate (1) blocked important legislation and (2) led to loss of both the House & the Senate

Every Senate bill except the budget can be blocked by filibuster. We couldn't pass healthcare reform & some other important things because of the Republican filibuster in the Senate... Americans did not why we couldn't get those things done & it was one of the reasons we took a whupin' 2 yrs later. They said, "You know Bill Clinton's got a majority in the Congress... why can't we get healthcare?"

We need to work with the Republicans, but we need to work together. We don't need a firewall, we need a bridge.

This bridge can give us political reform... Two weeks ago, the people voted for the bridge. Don't let Georgia put a firewall up in front of the bridge.

Righteous anger about How Chambliss slimed Max Cleland... about the politics of fear...

I saw somebody wanting a seat in the Senate so bad that he said that Max Clelend endangered the security of this country... Saxby Chambliss made people afraid in 2002 and now you're supposed to be afraid of the change you just voted for. He wants to be a firewall to block the reforms.

The bottom line:

This election's not about Republican & Democrat... it's about yesterday & tomorrow.
Martin is the bridge, Chambliss is the firewall...
You've got to decide what you want. The hopes of America are riding with Georgia.

Early voting already started in GA. Want to help?
Go to BarackObama.com,
select Action,
click: I want to help on my own.
Then click: Make calls from home with our online tool.

Help build the bridge!

LOL-- I always screw up those blockquote thingies

Former Bush 41 National Security Adviser Brent Scowcroft- CNN interview:
(paraphrased)

Neocon? Well, it's a combination of idealism and brute force...

aimzzz @10:34am paraphrased Brent Scowcroft's definition of a Neocon as a combination of idealism and brute force. LOL
However ..... I ask the question - What is this idealism that a neocon is referring to? Idealism to them is surely different from my idealism. The brute force part I get. Is this neocon idealism the one we're using to bash all opposing Iraqis into submission? We seem to have taken sides in the civil war that's waged on and off for centuries in Iraq. Does this mean that the supported side shares neocon idealism? Whilst the rest have to be suppressed into accepting it by brute force?

woz - will get back to you, but Scowcroft not exactly complementary on the ideology or the brute force. Before Iraq, Scrow tried to take W to the woodshed, but BushCo elbowed him out of the room.

Texas hearing on Dick Cheney, Alberto Gonzales indictment turns chaotic

Associated Press

RAYMONDVILLE, Texas — A county prosecutor who brought indictments against Vice President Dick Cheney, former Attorney General Alberto Gonzales and others pounded his fist and shouted at the judge Friday about special treatment for high-profile defendants as a routine motions hearing descended into chaos.

Willacy County District Attorney Juan Angel Guerra, who is accusing the public officials of culpability in the alleged abuse of prisoners in a federal detention center, asked Presiding Judge Manuel Banales to recuse himself. Guerra has complained about Banales' handling of the case.

Attorneys for the vice president and other defendants leapt to their feet in objection, as Guerra pounded the table and accused Banales of giving the defendants special treatment in allowing motions to quash the indictments to be heard before the defendants were arraigned.

"Now all of a sudden there is urgency," Guerra shouted. "Eighteen months you kept me indicted through the election." The charges against Guerra were dismissed in October. Guerra lost re-election in the March Democratic primary.

Banales called a recess to contact the chief justice of the state Supreme Court for suggestions on how to proceed, and ordered Guerra, who had slipped out once before in the hearing, to remain in the courthouse.

"I will not obey that order," Guerra said. When Banales implied he would take steps to keep Guerra in court, Guerra agreed to stay if the judge asked him respectfully.

Unlike the initial hearing Wednesday when Guerra was absent and media and attorneys for the indicted appeared in equal numbers, curious residents packed the well-worn pews of the Willacy County Courthouse's only courtroom Friday.

Half of the indictments returned Monday are linked to privately run federal detention centers in the sparsely populated southern Texas county. The other half target judges and special prosecutors who played a role in an earlier investigation of Guerra.

Banales appointed a special prosecutor to handle the local officials indicted along with Cheney, Gonzales and state Sen. Eddie Lucio Jr., D-Brownsville, because Guerra has sparred with them for years.

The vice president is the highest public official Guerra has pursued, but he made a nearly 20-year-career of passing over routine crimes in favor of public corruption before being defeated in the March Democratic primary election.

It was Guerra's interest in the contracts to build and run a federal detention center that led to some of his biggest successes _ three guilty pleas on bribery charges from former county commissioners in 2005. But he also believes it was the motivation for his own legal battles.

Guerra responded to his theft arrest by camping outside the courthouse with farm animals in protest. He continued working for more than a year while under indictment on charges of extorting money from a bail bond company and using his office for personal business until Banales dismissed the indictment last month.

Guerra ran the current investigation into alleged prisoner abuse with a siege mentality. He worked it from his home, dubbed it "Operation Goliath" and kept it secret from his staff, he said. He gave all the witnesses biblical pseudonyms - his was "David" - and sometimes gave false reasons for witnesses' appearances so as not to raise suspicion in a courthouse he believed to be filled with political enemies. A clerk and a judge who share the building were among those indicted Monday.

The grand jury also charged Lucio with illegally profiting from prison consulting fees.

The GEO Group Corp. was indicted on a murder charge for the death of an inmate at a federal prison.

"The indictment is the product of prosecutorial vindictiveness and is void on its face," defense attorney Tony Canales, who represents the private prison operator, wrote in a motion. Canales is also the legal representative for Cheney and Gonzales.

Another indictment alleges that Cheney's personal investment in the Vanguard Group, which invests in private prison companies, gives him culpability in alleged prisoner abuse.

Other indictments charge two district judges, two special prosecutors and the Willacy County district clerk with abusing their powers in investigating Guerra's office.

The defendants did need to appear in person Friday.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/112208dntxswindictment.1a28c5c.html

Christy:

On the Cheney thing, here is a link where you can download all the actual indictments:

http://www.kgbt4.com/news/news_story.aspx?id=225769

I looks like the Friday session kind of fell apart (the Judge said the prosecuter should be off the case and the prosecuter said the judge should be off the case so the judge put a call in to the state Supreme Court). The judge tentatively scheduled the hearing to reconvene, if that is the right phrase of art, on Wednesday.

Chuck in Houston

Aimzzz/Woz:

I suppose you all already know this, but Brent Scowcoft has been around a long time. The Wikipedia articles focuses on his recent incarnations, and the resume on the web is sort of laconic:

http://www.scowcroft.com/html/staff/scowcroft.html

He is a very interesting guy, born in Ogden Utah in 1925, which makes him around 83. I think his dad was a shop-keeper or something. Anyway, we was career USAF and got very much involved in US-USSR arms-control issues in the 1970's-1980's. Condoleezza Rice was his protege, in a sense (and with the shared Soviet focus), under Bush Sr., when Scowcroft was NSA (her Wikipedia article seems good on that).

To me, he is that old-school Main Street Republican which I wish would take their party back. He came out against the invasion of Iraq and said some very interesting things at the time, especially with respect to Cheney, who was Bush Sr.'s Secretary of Defense when Scowcroft was NSA (I think Woodward wrote a book about that too). Basically, he said something like "I don't recognize Dick Cheney anymore" (to paraphrase; I'll try to find the link). His basic line, as Cheney's was back in 1990-1991, was it was crazy to try and occupy the whole country.

Chuck in Houston

Scowcroft on invading Iraq before the recent invasion:

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110002133

And here is an interesting abstract on Scowcroft's role in the first Gulf War:

http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-12600149_ITM

The 1994 Dick Cheney:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YENbElb5-xY&feature=related

Brent Scowcroft: "Dick Cheney I don't know anymore":

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/1025-05.htm

Chuck in Houston

Thanks Chuck... you covered it all

You know, that penultimate paragraph in that August 2002 Scowcroft article sums up so much of the subsequent debate to me:

"In any event, we should be pressing the United Nations Security Council to insist on an effective no-notice inspection regime for Iraq--any time, anywhere, no permission required. On this point, senior administration officials have opined that Saddam Hussein would never agree to such an inspection regime. But if he did, inspections would serve to keep him off balance and under close observation, even if all his weapons of mass destruction capabilities were not uncovered. And if he refused, his rejection could provide the persuasive casus belli which many claim we do not now have. Compelling evidence that Saddam had acquired nuclear-weapons capability could have a similar effect."

Subsequently, Bush did go to the UN (September 12):

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/09/20020912-1.html

Then you had a Rovian advertising blitz in the lead-up to the congressional elections, which, among other things, facilitated the IWR passage:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/10/20021002-2.html

Also, to beat a dead horse, or to flail away in water long passed under the bridge, at the time I recall POTUS working for a Section 3 (a) authorization not limited to "Iraq", but to the "Middle East". That, as I understand it, got pared-down to the version passed in order to get some semblance of bi-partisan support for the resolution (in other words, if the Democrats had been to intransigient we might have ended up with a resolution passed on GOP votes alone but that would have simultaneously authorized the use of US force in places like Iran and Syria).

Then, surprisingly enough to me anyway, Iraq by-and-large complied with the UN inspections, and the result of the inspections seemed to indicate no significant WMD programs (I read this book "Fiasco" that analyzes the intelligence the US got after the war and concludes that the programs seem to have fizzled away to nothing after the strikes the US ordered in 1998 when Iraq kicked out the inspectors).

Note that so far, Scowcroft's advice works. Then for some reason, POTUS decided to deny that fact, and send Powell to the UN to underline that denial, and subsequently went ahead and told the inspectors to leave and then started the invasion. (Again, that "Fiasco" book is a good read on how it went from bad to worse after that).

What is that classical allusion to the effect that whom the gods would destroy, they first drive mad?

Chuck in Houston

PS: Sorry, I know I'm rambling, but the Scowcroft thing has me in a nostalgiac and introspective mood. I wanted to post one more thing about Gates in that regard (another Bush Sr. Cold-War guy with a Soviet Studies background, like Scocroft and Rice).

Jeez, looks like Gates and Graham (ex-Senator from Texas) both spent some time as Aggies (at Texas A&M, that is):

http://www.defenselink.mil/bios/biographydetail.aspx?biographyid=115

By the way, to understand some of the culture of Texas, it helps me to watch the UT-Aggie traditional Thanksgiving football game and google Aggie Jokes. Actually, I've worked with a lot of Aggies and I think it is a fine school with very strong academics. I've even got a favorite Aggie joke.

Anyway, to finish my off-topic meander, recall that Gates replaced Rumsfeld soon after the major defeat of the GOP in the 2006 mid-terms. Recall that prior to that vote the office of POTUS was very supportive of Rumsfeld. In other words, with the change of power in the Legislative, the Executive was forced to make a radical change in direction and tone with respect to the war. If I was to write a novel about that period, in a Gore Vidal sort of style, I think I would posit a plot where Scowcroft and Bush Sr. types told the Rumsfeld Bush Jr. types to dump Rummy, hire Gates, and back the surge or else they would give the goods to Reid and Pelosi to call impeachment hearings. That's my drama-take anyway. Whew. Sorry about that. I just felt the need to type that up once I had it in my head.

Chuck in Houston

I think a good title for such a novel would be "Unknown Unknowns":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RpSv3HjpEw

Thank goodness that era is over and we may have survived it....

It's so embarrassing for someone like me who has been cynical to actually have to say that the President-Elect is kind of cool. I am SO used to have Tricky Dick or Reagan somehow pulls the wool over the eyes of the American suckers .. Bush's dad (for one interminable term) .. and later two terms with his monkey son .. this time I was so afraid to HOPE .. and I don't want to feel like a jerk because I actually pretty much LIKE the President-elect and his FDR-esque YouTube video today where he talks about jobs and public works projects and energy independence. (Slugbug, with two White Russians)

Anyway, this is so cool!

Here is the original, by TRIBE CALLED QUEST, my all-time favorite rap group. I notice even that the "how do you say.." sample is from Deeelite's Lady Miss Kier, who I just saw, another synchronicity!

Actually, the Obama one sampled the Tribe Called Quest one, which sampled the original Lou Red one!!

Thanks, Chuck - for the Scowcroft material.

This is so odd I had to post it. Apparently, Rumsfeld has re-surfaced in the NY Times Week in Review with an opinion on surges in Iraq and Afghanistan:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/23/opinion/23rumsfeld.html?_r=1

I wonder if I could adjust my novel plot to accomodate this develepment....

Chuck in Houston

This DKos diary talks about it and I haven't read the comments or the previous diary and comments on the subject, but the guy says he's getting feedback because 1) some people hate Code Pink, and 2) some people hate Ahmadinejad. Anyway, my imagination is working over time. The Google Image bank is full of highly insulting pictures of both. I first heard of Code Pink in 2003 before the war and thought the name was clever. I appreciate their fearlessness and use of theater, and that they do not wait for those inside the system to go through the regular channels to get something done! The picture below does not look very scary. They are assertive but nonviolent - that is the whole point!

We literally can not afford war with Iran, even if it were not ideologically stupid. The excuse of protecting Israel is a joke because Israel does what US requires, not the other way around. Our policy has basically not changed in that regard in four decades. JFK was the last President to work toward a nuclear-free Middle East. The last American of high profile to visit Iran may have been Rick Steves the travel guru.

slugbug
Thanks for the videos. Spitfire & Shortstop (kitties) like them too ;p

Shortstop (left) & Spitfire

SB:

I do not get that murder photo -- is that a joke or something? I really do not get it.

Chuck in Houston

SB & Chuck
I don't get it either

Chuck
Here is why I think Rumsfeld is writing in the NY Times about Iraq and Afghanistan - because Obama met with Karzai.

http://voanews.com/english/2008-11-23-voa8.cfm

Obama is shadow president and it's great he has chosen Clinton, Richardson, all the rest. He needs experienced people to implement change quickly.

I am happy about it.

Probably that has been Photoshopped? I think I will substitute a different photo. Many of the Photos of both Code Pink and Ahmadinejad were negative. I think I did not even read it correctly. Probably a wingnut did it. I was thinking in my mind about Iraqi civilians or something.

Wow here is the new version. I don't want Code Pink mad at me or Ahmadinejad either! I grabbed the wrong one when I was resizing it. Someone had played an internet prank. The code even has "prank" in it. I changed it at our site too. Thanks!!

This DKos diary talks about it and I haven't read the comments or the previous diary and comments on the subject, but the guy says he's getting feedback because 1) some people hate Code Pink, and 2) some people hate Ahmadinejad. Anyway, my imagination is working over time. The Google Image bank is full of highly insulting pictures of both. I first heard of Code Pink in 2003 before the war and thought the name was clever. I appreciate their fearlessness and use of theater, and that they do not wait for those inside the system to go through the regular channels to get something done! The picture below does not look very scary. They are assertive but nonviolent - that is the whole point!